E10 – Chicken Rice and the Making of an Empire

Hosted by Dr Noby Leong and Philip Gibson
Produced by Dr Noby Leong and Philip Gibson
Sound Design by Jack Barr
English Dub by Liu Ziyang

Satay? Okay! is produced by Kopi Productions Limited and supported by the Golden Chopsticks Scholarship, by the Oxford Cultural Collective Trust

A History of Malaysia (2016), Barbara Watson Andaya, Leonard Y. Andaya

Lee, E., Wong, S.P., Laxman, L. Language Maintenance and Cultural Viability in the Hainanese Community: A Case Study of the Melaka Hainanese (2014). Athens Journal of Humanities & Arts, Vol. 1, no. 2 pp. 157 – 168, https://doi.org/10.30958/ajha.1-2-6

Hoe Kee Chicken Rice – 468, Jalan Hang Jebat, 75200 Melaka, Malaysia

Happy Garden Restoran – 206b, Jalan Batu Ferringhi, Kampung Batu Feringgi, 11050 Batu Ferringhi, Pulau Pinang, Malaysia

Please note that this transcript may contain errors and typos

Welcome to Satay? Okay! A podcast about the foods
that have shaped Malaysia. I’m Dr. Noby Leong,
scientist, food writer and broadcaster. I’m Philip
Gibson, photographer and follower of Christ.
And in this series, we explore the history, cultures
and cuisines of Malaysia, from the ancient lands
of Southeast Asia, all the way through to the
creation of a modern day nation. In today’s episode,
we take a look at chicken rice and the making
of an empire. So cue the Darth Vader soundtrack
and get ready for satay. Okay. It’s the final
episode of the season, Philip. We have gone on
such a journey. And thank you so much to all
our listeners for joining us on this ride. It
has been an adventure. But before we lament too
much, let’s get straight into the episode. So
in the last episode, we looked at the Malay and
Indonesian archipelagos in the th century,
and we talked about the Anglo -Dutch Treaty of
where Britain and Holland basically carved
up that whole region to make British Malaya and
the Dutch East Indies. And so today we’re going
to continue that journey into the th and early
th century to see how Britain fully colonized
British Malaya. But before we do that, let’s
take a look at our food symbol of the day, which
ties us to the past and reminds us of this point
in history. And that is chicken rice. Chicken
rice. Well, I think my first experience of chicken
rice would have been in Adelaide at Adelaide
Central Market Institution called Ricky’s Chicken
Rice, creatively named. Ricky’s. To me, though,
chicken rice, as far as I can tell for you, is
one of those dishes that you crave when you’re
ill. It’s that kind of just… It’s not stodge,
but it’s like comforting and quite plain, quite
easy. Yeah, chicken rice provides me with so
much comfort, not just when I’m physically ill,
but if I’m emotionally ill. Yeah, yeah, it’s
a comfort food. Yeah, I guess so. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. And I can’t really explain it, but I guess
every culture has its version of comfort food,
you know, like chicken noodle soup. A lot of
people have that when they’re feeling… either
physically or mentally ill. So chicken rice is
that for, I think, a lot of Malaysians. I don’t
know that I’ve ever thought about having chicken
noodle soup when I’m mentally unwell. There are
people. Yeah, yeah. I think for me, I probably
gravitate towards macaroni and cheese or something
like that. But that’s kind of nostalgic. But
yeah, I guess that’s it. Yeah, exactly. So for
those of you that don’t know, chicken rice…
Doesn’t refer to any kind of chicken and rice
combo. It’s specifically Hainanese chicken rice.
And it’s basically rice served with poached chicken,
a couple of different sauces and a soup. So to
make chicken rice, it’s a multi -step process.
And if you’re an engineer, you can probably make
some kind of workflow diagram of what’s happening.
Okay. But basically you take a whole chicken,
a really high quality one. You pop it in water
with… you know some ginger and whatnot poach
it low and slow and then take that chicken out
and then leave that to rest right the stock you’ve
just created is used for two things one is the
soup right and the other is to actually cook
the rice and that’s how you give chicken rice
its unique actual flavor It’s definitely god
tier rice as far as I’m concerned. Yeah, it’s
sort of like a little bit oily because you usually
use chicken fat to actually cook the rice as
well. But it’s got this lovely fragrance. You
can eat it by itself. I would eat it by itself.
And I would almost be like, I would say if you
were going to make fried rice, using Hainese
chicken rice to make fried rice would be like
the most flavoursome, I think. chicken like fried
rice that you could get yeah so it is actually
quite plain though so it’s often eaten with like
a sour chili sauce and then like a ginger spring
onion right sauce but in terms of like the repertoire
of chinese dishes it is probably the most plain
thing that we make. It’s boiled chicken and boiled
rice. Yeah. With a couple of embellishments.
It feels so British in many ways. Well, we love
to boil things. Yeah. So as I said, this is a
Hainanese style of chicken rice. And the Hainanese
are a cultural group from China. And they brought
this dish with them using what’s called Wenchang
chicken. So the whole history of this dish is
that there’s a place on the island of Hainan.
If you’re not familiar with Chinese geography,
get your map out. Hainan is sort of like, you
know, the Hawaii of China. It’s in the south.
It’s very tropical. And there’s this chicken
there that famously has beautiful flavor, fatty.
And so when you cook it by itself, you don’t
actually need much else with it. And so these
migrants from the island of Hainan came to Malaysia.
with tails of Wenchang chicken and that’s how
Hainanese chicken rice was born in Malaysia and
also Singapore. So it’s a specific regional variant
of a Hainanese dish. I could imagine that we
would struggle to replicate that in the UK with
our growth hormone, protein -ed out -of -the
-nut chickens that are, what, days old when
they get slaughtered? Yeah, it’s the same in
Australia. And so my mum would always say, buy
corn -fed chicken. Right. Or buy, like, a high quality corn
-fed, that yellow skin, I think that’s supposed
to be reminiscent of Wenchang chicken. Anyway,
so chicken rice is this very much Hainanese dish.
And we can see the significance of the Hainanese
community when we start to look at the colonization
of Malaya by Britain. And that’s what we’re going
to explore today. So as I mentioned last episode,
we saw how Britain gained its sphere of influence
through that Anglo -Dutch Treaty of But
with this treaty, it didn’t actually mean they
could rule the region. They could just monopolize
the trade in many aspects. The places they could
rule outright were their settlements, which were
Penang, Singapore and Malacca. So they had already
gained those through various nefarious means.
So as we move forward in history and trade and
power, becomes greater for britain we start to
move away from the british east india company
as that dominant force and the british crown
starts to get more involved because trade commerce
and power is getting so large so the british
crown is really the driving force at this stage
British Crown, though, wasn’t initially that
excited about expanding their interests in the
peninsula. They didn’t actually need to get more
land. Okay. But all the trade merchants that
were operating in Malaya at the time were whispering
to the folks in London going like, hey guys,
if you don’t seize more land, the Germans are
gonna. And so they used this sort of fear. to
drive the British crown to expand and colonise
the rest of Malaysia. It just kind of goes to
show the kind of lack of a way, I guess in the
day before, like, you know, telecommunications,
before even Telegram, whatever, you know, it
was, what, three or four weeks at sea to get
a letter back and forth between Britain and its
colonies or Europe and their colonies. Yeah,
it’s amazing how much… you know kind of uh
embellishment i guess people would get away with
uh in terms of asking for more authority or getting
more means i guess so the british crown starts
to think about colonization and so we’re getting
a bit more geographically intense in this episode
as we always do so if you want to play along
i recommend getting out a map of malaysia a modern
day map is fine but make sure it’s got all the
states outlined. And those states would have
been the different regions controlled by different
Malay rulers back in the day. So if you get on
a map, get out a pen and we’re going to cross
out all the regions that Britain will slowly
take over over the course of this episode, across
the course of the th century. So right now
you can cross off Penang, Singapore and Malacca.
That’s the straight settlements. Yes. So Britain
has already obtained these. but keep that red
pen handy as we go through this episode. Now,
we’re only actually going to look at the Malay
Peninsula. We’re not going to look at the Borneo
side. Yes, we’ll come back to Borneo. Yeah. Okay,
so Bryn wants to take over, but lessons from
the past tell them what not to do. And what you
shouldn’t do if you’re trying to colonize is
depose a sultan. The reason why you shouldn’t
do that, A, It usually starts a war, which is
very, very expensive. And B, it means you get
trust issues with the population. Just because
you’ve deposed an assault and now you’re the
new ruler doesn’t mean anyone’s going to listen
to you. And so those two lessons lead Britain
to develop what’s called the residential system.
Okay. So the residential system is basically
a British appointed resident. to be installed
as an advisor to a malay sultan or ruler so the
role of this advisor would be to basically indirectly
rule by whispering sweet nothings into the Sultan
and getting the Sultan to act on your behalf.
Okay, it’s the… If we’re going to go back to
Game of Thrones, it’s the kind of little finger
sort of… No, the spider. No. Probably all of
the above. Right, yeah, true, true, true. So
this was a system all about indirect rule rather
than direct rule. But in order to enact this
residential system and get these residents into
those sultanates, Britain needed to sign treaties
with the Malay rulers. And their first opportunity
came in in a region of Perak. So get out
that map and get your pen ready. So Perak is
north of the capital of Kuala Lumpur. And in
the late th century, a couple of things were
happening at the time. First, there was what
we call the Larut Wars. This was this wide
ranging conflict between Chinese quote -unquote
secret societies. And the disputes were largely
over tin mining. Right. Second, there were succession
issues happening in Perak at the time between
two opposing rivals, Raja Abdullah and Sultan
Ismail. Both were saying that they were the rightful
heir to the throne. Okay. Importantly, Raja Abdullah
was pro -British, but Sultan Ismail was not,
and he was pretty suspicious of British rule.
Noticing this pattern, Britain… approaches
Raja Abdullah and says to him, we will recognize
you as a rightful heir to the throne. We will
also help you to quash these Larut wars with
these warring Chinese societies. And in return,
appoint one of our people as your resident who
will advise you in all future matters. Raja Abdullah
agrees and they sign what becomes known as the
Pangkor Treaty of Pangkor being an island
just off the mainland, but still in Perak. And
so a British man named James Birch is appointed
as the resident. Of course, Philip. The devil
is in the details. And when Britain and Raja
Abdullah signed the treaty, there were actually
two versions. One was in English and one was
in Malay. And the details between these two versions
differed. Or at least the interpretation differed.
So I will say that the Malay one no longer exists.
I think they can’t find an authentic copy, but
it’s very likely that Raja Abdullah saw the role
of the resident as someone who literally just
advises, but that the advice didn’t actually
have to be taken up or acted upon. But Britain
saw the role of an advisor as something much
more involved and hands -on. They assumed that
the Malay ruler would listen to all of the advice
by the resident and help him enact that advice.
Right. Britain does not realize that sultans
generally don’t have that power. Okay, so overcompensating
then. Yeah, Malay courts at that time were generally
much more consensus driven. You need to get your
Malay chiefs involved and you need to get their
approval at the same time. Okay, right. So even
if the sultan wanted to implement the resident’s
advice, he actually couldn’t. Okay. But there
were lots of other issues too. So one of them
was that… Britain didn’t like religion in its
administration. Okay. But that whole concept
of being secular is totally non -existent in
the Malay world. Ah, as in like the courts are
religious. Yeah. Well, Sharia law, I guess. Yeah,
you can’t separate them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even
to this day, there’s not this massive separation.
Yeah. But there were also issues around taxation
and how these finances were getting collected
and lots of issues around slavery too, which
was happening in the Malay world at that time
as well. So this gives you the situation where
Britain thinks it’s got all this legal authority
and control, but all the Malay rulers and all
the chiefs are like, no, you don’t. And so there’s
all this hostility, resentment and tension that’s
building. And the resident, James Birch, ends
up being assassinated. Didn’t see that coming.
Britain, obviously, quite upset about this. And
so they retaliate quite strongly and they send
in their troops from both India and Hong Kong.
They pursue both Raja Abdullah and Sultan Ismail.
They exile them. They exile a whole bunch of
other Malay chiefs and they also hang a bunch
of them as well. Oh dear. So the really strong
signal that Britain is sending is that if you
go along with us and do as we say, you’ll be
rewarded. But if you don’t, you will be punished.
We will exile you, kill you, whatever we have
to do. Right. And the British Empire, being who
they are and being so powerful at this time,
they can crush anyone. Yeah, yeah. You know,
it’s not like those Malay rulers really had the
military power to take them on. Yeah, I guess
this was around about that era where we would
be looking at maps and the sun doesn’t set in
the British Empire and that sort of a thing.
Yeah. So, you know, if you are one of the Malay
rulers, you kind of have no choice but to be
like, yeah, okay, well, I either die or I go
along with what you’re saying. Yeah. And this
is how Britain made its empire in British Malaya.
So it’s through this method of the residential
system and the coercion by Britain that it came
to gain Perak. So if you’ve got your map, tick
off Perak or put a cross, however you’re feeling.
And Britain would also go on to sign similar
residential treaties with Pahang, Selangor and
the Negeri Sembilan. So you can tick off those
two. So these are all in sort of the central
belt of the Malay Peninsula. And again, it probably
should be noted that these areas were starting
to be reasonably developed and there would have
been a lot of like rubber and tin mining going
on here, which, of course, Britain is interested
in trade and so making its money. It wants that
sweet, sweet cash. And so if we do a map check,
we can see that what we’re left with now is Johor,
which is in the south. and all of the northern
states. So we have the states of Kedah, Perlis,
Terranganu, and Kelantan. Britain, though, is in
a bit of conundrum to get these northern states.
They border Thailand, and at the time, all of
those states were under the loose overlordship
of Siam. So it wasn’t really like an onerous
relationship. Siam let them do whatever they
want. They had quite a lot of independence, I
believe. This doesn’t mean, however, that Siam
liked that Britain had their eye on it. Sure.
But I think Siam was in a bit of a bind at the
time. Right. Because you had Britain encroaching
from the south, and then you had France encroaching
from the north. Right, yeah, yeah. And so, as
we know, whenever Europe enters Southeast Asia,
they always play so kindly. So, yeah, I think
Siam would have felt pressured to act one way
or another. Yeah, well, probably feeling a bit
pinched, certainly with British India and Burma
being next door as well. Yeah, yeah. So Britain,
being very, very persistent, ends up holding
a secret convention with Siam in Who is
it secret from? Europe? It’s secret from the
Malay world. Oh. Britain and Siam are doing deals.
that affect the Malay world, but without Malay
input. So at this secret convention, they agree
that Siam would continue to be overlord, but
Brits were the only, they were the only third
power, the only European that could actually
come in, claim territory, make trade deals with
those northern states. And this is again, basically
in reference to the threat from Germany. Okay.
So again, The sultans and the Malay rulers of
those northern states have no idea what’s going
on. And this secret convention comes into play
when those northern states enter periods of financial
difficulty and they turn to Siam for help. Siam
agrees to help them, but on the proviso that
they install a financial advisor to help oversee
matters. And those advisors happen to be British.
I see. And it was basically only a matter of
time before… Britain was able to formally gain
those. And administer them, yeah. So in
Siam and Britain signed what’s called the Anglo
-Siamese Treaty or the Bangkok Treaty, which
transferred ownership of those states, Kedah,
Perlis, Terengganu and Kelantan to Britain. And
again, this was done without consultation by
any of the Malay rulers. And many of them saw
this as an absolute betrayal. And the ruler of
Kedah stated at the time that his country had
been, quote, bought and sold like a buffalo.
So if you go back to your map, you can tick off
all those four states. And what you should notice
now is that there’s just one state left, and
that is Johor in the south. And all that Brin
had to do to gain Johor was wait for the sultan
to die. So Sultan Abu Bakr of Johor, very popular,
very independent. He died in and he was
replaced by his -year -old son. Very young,
unfortunately not as strong and independent as
his father and he could not resist the power
of Britain. And so Britain obtains Johor under
the residential system as well. And with that,
Britain has made its empire. it’s colonized the
entirety of the malay peninsula and could now
act however it wanted to okay you put away your
map for now yeah that was a lot yeah i don’t
know how much people know about the residential
system philip yeah actually whether in malaysia
or beyond and i don’t think people realize how
coercive britain was in in their pursuit of colonization
i don’t think they realize how dishonest Britain
was, how much of a bully Britain was. Yeah, we
probably assumed that it was forced by another
way, not this kind of like sneaky kind of conversational
style. Yeah, yeah. So back to thinking about
the history for a bit, you now have a whole bunch
of very wealthy British people in Malaya. So
these are the residents. We’ve got governors,
we’ve got administrators, traders, etc. And they
all have very wealthy households because they
have now families. There are whites -only societies.
But you do have to ask yourself, who was actually
taking care of the British people? When I say
taking care, I mean, like, who was operating
their households? Who was cooking for them? Who
was running all the domestic duties? Right. And
that’s where the Hainanese people come into play.
So, previously, we’ve talked about Chinese migration
to British Malaya. But it’s important to reinforce
that Chinese people aren’t a homogenous group.
And across the centuries, there are five main
groups of Chinese people that came. You have
the Teochew and the Cantonese, and they came from
the Guangdong region. You have Hokkien from Fujian
region. You also have Hakkas from the mountainous
areas of Guangdong, Guangxi and Fujian. And you
also have the Hainanese from the island of Hainan.
And they came in the late 19th century and the
early 20th century. One thing we haven’t mentioned
in this podcast yet, though, is why so many Chinese
people came. So we’ve talked about, I guess,
the pull factors, which is the availability of
jobs, particularly in tin mining and agricultural.
Right. But we haven’t really talked about the
push factors. What else was prompting them to
leave China at that time? Yeah, that’s true.
I mean, I guess if we’re talking about the middle
of the s. then I feel most British people
and most people around the world have probably
heard of the Opium Wars. So what a lot of people
haven’t heard of is the Taiping Rebellion, which
I think is one of the most poorly named conflicts
maybe ever. It does sound like a cute Star Wars
sort of rebels against the Empire. I think so.
To me it sounds as though somebody’s walked into
our royal palace somewhere and has had stern
words with somebody. You know, like maybe knocked
over a few chairs and tables. Yes, broke a vase.
Maybe, yeah, yeah, yeah. And a bit of a strop.
I’m just going to paint the scene. I understand
this is a Malaysian and Southeast Asian food
podcast, but I think it’s important probably
just to paint the picture of what was going down
in China at this time. But I’m going to leave
China for a second and I’m going to go to another
place that starts with C and that’s Connecticut.
So we’re going to go back to and a guy called
Edwin Stevens was born in Connecticut. He became
a Christian missionary and in he heads over
to southern China. He ends up in Guangzhou and
he’s handing out these Christian pamphlets and
happens to give it to a hacker guy called Hong
Xiuquan who reads it but kind of dismisses
it and doesn’t really think about it. He goes
off by a couple of years but then succumbs to
this episode of having these intense fever dreams
and visions of this bearded figure and another
individual telling him to banish the world of
demons and all of the rest of it. I think what’s
also important to talk about at this point in
time is China’s under the rule of the Qing dynasty
and the Qing dynasty have just fought the first
of two opium wars and had to make various concessions
to the British and various other European enterprises
to allow trade into the area. Classic. So yeah
and so British were content they’ve got Hong
Kong and they’ve got their trading ports but
the Qing dynasty is definitely feeling a bit…
a bit sore, a bit sour from this defeat. Sure.
And I think there’s a bit of kind of growing
discontent within China itself. Right, yeah,
of course. And so here we have Hong, who picks
up this pamphlet that he got off of this guy
Edwin from Connecticut, who goes a bit kind of
like, wait, all of these visions make sense.
I was talking to God. And this guy then somehow,
it makes perfect sense to him that… he is actually
the son of God and the younger brother of Jesus
Christ. Right. And so he goes on to establish
what becomes the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom. And
he himself, as a messenger, the son of God, decides
that he should be the king of China. Self -proclaimed.
Self -proclaimed. We’re getting a bit culty now.
And so spreading the good word. It should also
be mentioned that this is a very strange version
of Christianity. Right. He’s kind of borrowed
a couple of elements of maybe kind of local kind
of like folklore or whatever, but he’s interspliced
that with whatever was on this pamphlet. I cannot
imagine it was the entire Bible. And so this
guy, you know, is kind of somewhere between Christianity
and somewhere between kind of utopian communism.
No alcohol, no drugs, no sex, no gambling. Everything
is banned. Everybody’s supposed to be celibate.
Husbands and wives can’t even sleep together.
Right. But he himself keeps a harem of women
in his palace. Of course he does. So, you know,
love a bit of exceptionalism at the head of a
cult. But he believes in a lot of kind of equality
and the kind of like shared ownership of the
land and what have you. And so it’s kind of early,
early communism before it was even a thing. I
think even Karl Marx actually was a bit like,
hey, this guy’s not so bad. But then it all went
wrong. As they were leaving where they started
off in kind of the south of China and spread
into central China, anybody that didn’t agree
with them, they murdered. It was pretty bloody.
Women, children, babies, all of it. Just if they
stood in the way, they were kind of… People
had absolutely caught this fever. So they’re
ransacking all of these cities. The Qing dynasty
is trying their best to kind of like stop it
from happening. And then Hong retreats to his
palace, gets paranoid and stops kind of, you
know, leading the front. Eventually, Hong succumbs
to suicide, possibly, or it’s unclear how he
died. His son takes over, but it doesn’t last
too long. The Qing Dynasty eventually defeat
them. But in its wake, they have killed, estimates
go anywhere from million to million. Wow.
They’ve covered a massive swathe of China in
this period of time, displacing millions of people
who managed to flee out of their way so that
they weren’t murdered themselves. That is probably
why so many Chinese people left China in the
middle of the s. Because there was the risk
of getting killed. Or radicalised. Poverty. Yeah.
So many of them were probably refugees. I think
so, definitely. I think if it wasn’t the direct
consequence of the amount of murder that was
taking place as this heavenly kingdom was spreading
through China. Yeah. You know, you’re losing
all of the kind of like peasant and kind of working
classes who didn’t have the means necessarily
to get out of the way. And so the land is completely
left to ruin. And so famine, etc. So, you know,
I think some people speculate that maybe even
as many as million people were affected by
this crusade, effectively, for want of a better
word. So, yeah, this is why there’s such a huge
Chinese population outside of China at this point
and why so many of them ended up in Malaysia.
And so a lot of them did come over to work on
the tin mines, work on the plantations and things
like that. It’s a wild butterfly effect when
you think about this Connecticut -born Christian
missionary going off to China, radicalizing someone
who would then come to believe he is the brother
of Jesus Christ and the son of God, who then
kicks off the bloodiest war in global history.
At that point, I think, yeah. It’s probably bloodier
than the First World War. Yeah, which then prompts
the mass migration of Chinese people to Malaya,
who bring with them… Chicken rice. That’s it.
And do you know what’s funny? This guy, Edwin
Stevens, I think he died before any of this kicked
off. He died in, I think, his late s or something.
And yeah, didn’t live to see the consequence
of handing out pamphlets in southern China. You
could only imagine what he would be thinking.
Well, if there is a heaven and he’s looking down
upon it, he’s probably got his head in his hands
and doing a lot of screaming. So anyway, there
he is, Edwin Stevens and Hong. So yeah, that’s
quite the push factor. I would say that one of
the bloodiest wars in history I think would be
enough to make me probably want to get out and
leave. And the opium wars. And the opium wars.
So back to Malaya. And we have this mass migration
of Chinese people. But the Hainanese are actually
one of the last to arrive. They come in the late
th century and early th century. And because
they’re so late to the game, a lot of the other
jobs in mining and agriculture are already taken
up. And so they find themselves working in more
of the service -based industries. So many of
them end up working in wealthy British households
as cooks. They also find themselves working in
hotels. And then they also work in restaurants
and set up their own… service -based businesses.
And so Hainanese cuisine then really begins to
permeate Malaya’s culture. And Hainanese cooking
is still a massive part of Malaysia’s culture
today. And I think in more ways than people perhaps
realize. So when it comes to chicken rice itself,
massively popular in Malaysia and Singapore,
Singapore states that that’s their national dish.
I will say like, yes. It’s absolutely a big part
of Singapore’s history, but you can’t deny that
it’s also part of Malaysia’s history at the same
time. And here we have that sticky thing about
Nusantara and who owns the food. Exactly. We
can see how intertwined all of our cultures actually
are. When it comes to chicken rice, though, even
though that dish itself is very popular and very
much… preserved by various businesses and households
there are some types of chicken rice that aren’t
so well preserved and in malacca there’s a specialty
called chicken rice bowls which are different
to the chicken balls that we get in our local
cantonese takeaways in the uk very different
so malacca’s chicken rice are rice that’s been
shaped i guess into golf balls right yeah golf
ball size and the rice ends up being quite glutinous
and quite sticky. Right. So I wanted to find
out a little bit more about this very unique
Malaccan chicken rice. So we ended up speaking
to Xian Ji Chen. He’s a chef and he’s also the
owner of Hoe Kee Chicken Rice in Malacca. This
is a really popular chicken rice stall on Jonker
Walk, which is the main tourist strip in Malacca.
And so we spoke to him to hear about how his
family brought this iconic dish to the people
of Malacca. I was speaking Mandarin. My surname
is Chen, and my given name is Xian Ji. I followed
in my father’s footsteps to build this business
to where it is today. Actually, it was my mother
who started the chicken rice business. My father
helped her. In the early days, my mother worked
at the docks here in Malacca. It’s a small place,
so she and my eldest brother would carry the
rice bowls on a pole and sell them there. Back
then, each rice bowl was about the size of a
baseball. Yes, they were bigger. At the dock,
we had no proper containers, just newspapers
and plastic sheets. We’d wrap a few rice bowls,
add a bit of chicken and chilli, and then sell
them to the dock laborers. No, in the early days,
we kept it simple. Laborers just needed a meal
to fill them up. That’s how it started and gradually
grew. Then a kind person helped introduce my
mother to a small store rental in the Chinatown
area. After a few years there, another good Samaritan
introduced us to this little shop. Hoe Kee was
established in and has been going for more
than years. But despite surviving land reclamation
issues and COVID lockdowns, Hoe Kee and their famous
chicken rice balls may not survive for much longer.
In our early days, we served three main customer
groups, locals, tourists, and foreign visitors.
We couldn’t serve Malay patrons because we lacked
the proper permits. Now, the regulations are
a mess. Xian Ji is referring to regulations concerning
humanity’s greatest threat, a threat so powerful
that governments around the world have struggled
to contain it. It’s the threat of traffic. Hoe Kee
is situated in Jonker Walk, one of the busiest
tourist streets. Over the past year or so, the
local government has regularly changed the road
layout to cope with an increase in tourist numbers.
Parking areas change, two -way streets become
one -way streets, and some roads are blocked
altogether. Often, these changes occur without
warning, and it’s having a devastating impact
on businesses. To be fair, some changes are good.
But closing that road devastates all the nearby
businesses. It’s no joke. Locals won’t come,
and out -of -towners won’t either. They face
traffic jams and one -way roads with no parking.
Who wants to walk that far after a meal? I heard
from friends parking at Kuan Yin Temple costs
ringgit and ringgit if the lot is full
and they have to move their car. Three cars mean
ringgit just for parking. They definitely
won’t come. Even we wouldn’t. On holidays, foreign
visitors have nearly vanished. They get lost
when Waze reroutes them so they can’t find Junker
Walk. Yes, but it’s funny. They allow access
on Saturdays and Sundays, yet block near the
public bank. You think you know the route, but
on weekends it’s closed. Then during major holidays,
like st of May, they close it for five days.
Who would expect that? So visitors can’t find
a way. There’s no guideline on when it’s changed.
We’re in chaos and businesses suffer, even though
there’s demand. In the past, we had queues. Now
on big holidays, there’s no queue at all. There
are still a few, especially during Chinese New
Year. But since the route changes, there hasn’t
been a single day with queues in over six months.
Xianji remained calm and composed when we spoke.
But it couldn’t hide the facts. Even though Melaka
has seen a massive boom in tourism, Xianji says
that he has witnessed a -% drop in his
customers. Some people won’t speak up, but our
generation remembers every peak period. Business
boomed not only during Chinese New Year, but
on any holiday. The problem now is tour groups.
They get priority and convenience, but we don’t
benefit. And that was Xianji Chen from Hoe Kee
Chicken Rice. So I really loved hearing the story
of how his family set up shop in Melaka and
how these chicken balls came to be. Because whenever
we would go back to Melaka, my mom would be
obsessed with getting these chicken balls. I
never understood why she was so obsessed because
that literally just, the shape of the rice has
changed. Yeah, yeah. And I always was like, why?
So it was really nice to hear his story about…
how they started as baseballs and then have morphed
from there and i guess the need that they were
filling because dock workers needed something
they could just eat with their hands and just
take away yeah I guess it was just nostalgia
in the same way that when I was over in Australia
for four years, I couldn’t wait to come back
and have Gregg’s. So, you know, it’s a man of
simple pleasures. It’s absurd, though, that local
government with their traffic intervention is
the main kind of like issue. I think what’s interesting
is that most of the interviews we’ve had in this
podcast so far. talk about cultural preservation
from the point of view of maybe generations not
passing on knowledge, for instance, or commodification
of culture, twisting what the culture has become.
But we have this really interesting situation
where traffic policy could be causing the death
of cultural icons. Yeah, it’s from everybody
else that we’ve spoken to. It definitely seems
a bit more… uh quote unquote serious it’s um
but i think it really points to the importance
of governments and their role in ensuring cultures
are preserved and traditions are preserved for
the future especially in a place like malacca
which has built itself as a world heritage city
yeah Yeah, it’s quite an intense place. We were
there during Chinese New Year and we couldn’t
move. Because it’s so busy. Yeah, and I think
this kind of also comes back to something that
you’ve said about Melaka from your own personal
point of view, is that every time you go back,
it’s a little less like itself. Yeah. Because
Melaka is so popular with tourists now. Yeah,
particularly after the UNESCO recognition. Yeah,
governments and I guess the city has now catered
the experience to tourists rather than to the
local residents. And so what I see now is that
it’s becoming such a touristy city, but not offering
authentic and traditional Melakan experiences.
Right, yeah. For instance, they recently installed
a floating market. in malacca right there has
never been such a thing in malacca’s history
yeah we have never had floating markets that
we’ve never obtained our fruits and vegetables
or our products that way yeah i mean for anybody
that’s not been to malacca before they like had
some serious man -made intervention it was kind
of just a like a stream like it really wasn’t
big enough to be you know having boats going
up it um Yeah, it’s just a Thai phenomenon and
it just seems to… Yeah, it’s a Thai phenomenon.
It’s been exported from Thailand. But I don’t
know if tourists would even realise that this
is not Melakan at all. And I can’t blame them
for thinking that. Yeah, it’s a shame. I mean,
you know, for any kind of like Westerner or even
like Chinese tourists, they just, yeah, would
be completely ignorant to that. If you’re enjoying
this episode, you can follow us on social media
at Satay? Okay!. We’ll be sharing beautiful photos
taken by Philip of Malaysia, its people, and
of course, the food. We’ll also share photos
of Malaysia from the archives, so you can see
how the country has changed over time. You can
also find links to give us a tip or donation
to show your appreciation for the work we’re
doing. So head to our socials at SateOK or visit
our website, satayokay.com. So if we go back to
our Hainanese community. Chicken rice isn’t the
only important Hainanese dish. So there are also
kopitiams, which are basically coffee shops that
are historically run by Hainanese people. And
if you’ve ever visited Malaysia, you would have
definitely gone to a kopitiam because that’s
where you’re getting your kaya, your coconut
jam toast. That’s where you’re getting your coffee
from, your half -boiled eggs and that sort of
thing. Yeah, typically a breakfast thing. Yeah,
breakfast thing. They usually close by about
two. Yeah. But Malaysian Hainanese food is a
cuisine onto itself. And I don’t think people
actually realize this. So because Hainanese people
were working in these British households and
hotels, they learned to cook a lot of British
meals, but then they fused Chinese elements.
So this created this new cuisine with, say, pork
chops, chicken chops, but done in a Chinese way.
And so Malaysian Hainanese cooking is that true
hybrid between British and trad Hainanese. Yeah.
Today, there really aren’t that many specialist
Hainanese restaurants. They cook this hybrid
British. Yeah, yeah. And possibly because it’s
overshadowed by so many other different cuisines.
And because when you look at a Hainanese menu,
you’re like pork chops, chicken chops. I didn’t
come to Malaysia to eat this. Right. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. So to find out more. We went to Penang
and we spoke to Tee Tee Yong and Sherine Tan and
they run Happy Garden Restaurant. This is a very
traditional Hainanese restaurant. It’s based
in the seaside region of Batu Ferringhi, which
is very popular amongst tourists. And at the
restaurant, Yong runs the kitchen while Sherine
is front of house. Yep. So we spoke to them about
their history and their perspectives on Malaysian
Hainanese food. I don’t go for, my education
is only years. Lower school, years. And
then high school, years. Not very good in education,
so English sometimes might be broken. My parents
are from China, Hainan Island. I’m the first
generation here. Yong began his cooking career
while he was still in high school, working in
the Palm Beach Hotel, then one of the largest
hotels in Penang. He shared his story about how
he learned to cook, starting off at the bottom
rung of the ladder. So, with long hours and low
pay, Yong learned how to cook. But the teaching
method was anything but formal. Most of the time,
Yong learned through observation. Pen at the
back every time I watching people because I don’t
have a very good memory. So I must write down
So I go to a site I write simple then I buy another
big textbook. I go home every night. I have to
write down Then only I go for repeat again. So
you’re writing recipes or all the recipe. Yeah,
and in the old day The senior will not like you
to you stand aside and watch them do all the
good job because it’s top secret because if their
pay is paid or or because they will
worry you might take over the job they want to
feed the family see so you have the very hard
working helping them helping them then they like
you Hey, you come you do this you do that. Okay.
Oh you do this you do that They doing things
very fast at the same time. I’m helping them
Helping you is helping me. Yeah, so helping you
helping them I have to look later on I go for
my lunch. I put my lunch aside I take out and
right so after that I learn how people doing
grill how people doing roast The cooking stations
weren’t the only place of learning. Yong also
had to check the dishwashing areas to see what
diners were and were not enjoying. what you sold
out know how the people like your food or not
so must we go to the people who the service side
they connect to the dishwasher area yeah this
is why we have to learn and i have to learn i
have to watch out this chef this chef this chef
which is doing roast good which is doing pan
cooking good which one is doing uh dessert good
yeah i’d watch out This kitchen environment equipped
Yong with a lot of skills and knowledge, but
it also exposed him to the head chef’s wild mood
swings. Oh, you must be very dedicated and very
respect them. When they scold me, I cannot stand.
I’m years old. I go to a site, hide at the
fridge. I cry. I clean my tears. People laugh
at me. Oh, you cry? No. That’s now I peel onion.
Sorry, I go to wash my onion. I almost remember.
Hainanese chefs were expected to master a range
of dishes to cater to the colonial palate. And
eventually, establishments like the Palm Beach
Hotel paved the way for new hybrid cuisine to
emerge. English people will teach our people
how to make bread. They teach us how to make
grill. Then later on, they teach us how to make
cold dish, how to make salad, how to make roast,
then later on. And then we must know how to do
it. gravy or demi -glace yeah you must know how
to make not only cold chicken you must go know
to how to make lobster no you cannot not know
to grill only you must know how to make lobster
tomato that’s why we are in perfect then english
people tell us how you make coffee how you make
tea how you make custard sauce that why that’s
why we invented kaya kaya is we harness people
oh get gonna jump we english people say twist
and turn we look at the english people doing
custard we twist a bit and turn a bit into kaya
very good people put into for sandwich in the
bread and then you mix with butter oh it come
in perfect flavor i talked to my friend we are
the first people to do the fusion Hainanese chefs
became renowned in the region for their culinary
skill, and it’s little wonder why, as many have
spent years honing their skills. But for Yong,
cooking is more than a vocation. It’s his intellectual
property, and he’s incredibly protective of his
culinary knowledge. to go and teach the chef
for one month. He asked me close one month, go
to teach their hotel. And then I tell some customer,
how do you think if I close one month, I go to
teach them, I charge them one million. Still
very cheap, they say. Still very cheap. Nothing.
If I charge them one million. One million sounded
like a lot of money to me. But then Yong broke
down the price of some classic Malaysian hawker
recipes. Yong has a clear understanding of the
business value of his food and cooking, but I
wondered what his opinions were on preserving
the cultural value of his work through a cookbook.
This led us to an interesting comparison between
his business and McDonald’s. Would you ever try
and preserve your recipes by writing a cookbook
or something like that so it survives? Many people
have approached him. He wanted to write this
book and he approached him many times but he
didn’t want to do it. Everybody knows McDonald’s,
yeah? So McDonald’s starts with two brothers.
They start in a very small store in San Francisco
City. These two brothers, they are American,
are very hardworking. They’re doing their own
small business with hamburger and hot dog. So
this American businessman come and eat. But this
businessman American come before, he come and
eat hamburger and hot dog. He already have the
mind to buy business. Second time come, hey guy,
you like millions? These two brothers will say,
yeah. Do you like to buy? You like to sell business?
Yeah, what’s your price? Later on, this businessman
will tell him, I’ll buy. I give a very big business.
When I buy, you still have a contract to work
for me so long and so long. Yeah, tell me, what’s
your price? When they have a meeting, two brothers
together. I give it to them. Are you sure? They’re
surprised. Are you happy? Okay, sign. The lawyer
signs. These two brothers jumping. Oh, we’ve
been millionaires now. Okay. So it is the same.
So you were that if you gave your recipe, it
would just become like McDonald’s and it’s not
the same. Not the same. Not the same. Yeah, yeah.
All food, you come. Packaging. I was fascinated
by this idea of packaging and that how something
is packaged doesn’t tell you much about the true
value of its contents. Me, you and you, before
we were married, you looked like a beautiful
girl first. The restaurant, the same. Packaging.
Everybody look at girlfriend. She gives a hi.
Oh, your hairstyle is very beautiful. Actually,
we are looking for talking to her. So the restaurant
is the same. If I am not beautiful restaurant,
I don’t attract. Now today you find you want
to buy cake or any other things you want to buy,
you’re looking for good packaging. This restaurant
is the same. People don’t pay attention to you.
Nobody cares. People coming here, While I understood
Yong’s position on protecting his culinary IP,
I still couldn’t help thinking about the cultural
knowledge that he holds. This turned out to be
a sensitive conversation. and he’s been approached
about this topic many times before. They say,
uncle, if you don’t teach me, later on you die,
everything go away. It’s very bad. They have
this attitude. They say, uncle, when you die,
everything going away. You don’t live in the
society. It’s very bad. They say, uncle, before
you die, you tell people. Very bad. I tell them,
you know the story about McDonald’s? So, Yong’s
refusal to share his culinary knowledge is, in
his own way, a form of cultural preservation.
It’s preventing his cooking and his cuisine from
turning into something that’s unrecognizable.
This means, however, that his food and these
cultural values may disappear. So that was Tante
Yong and Sherine Tan from Happy Garden Restaurant.
So the first thing that kind of struck me about
that interview is this concept of like cooking
and the skills of a chef as intellectual property.
Right, yeah, yeah. So we say that not in the
legal sense because recipes aren’t protected
by copyright law. Sure. But I think when I come
across someone like Yong and he’s really protective
of his recipes, initially I’m shocked. because
I’m all about sharing and caring, but I’m not
a chef by trade. And then when I hear his story
about how he had to learn these recipes and how
he learned by observation, learned by trial and
error, I start to really understand why he’s
so protective of his cooking and why he’s not
willing to sell it to anybody. Yeah, yeah. It’s
something that also probably should be noted
upon for those that haven’t maybe been over to
Malaysia. But I would say compared to the UK,
albeit there are these international chains like
McDonald’s and KFC and what have you that are
over there, there is a massive amount of independent
family restaurants and things like that. And
so there would be lots and lots of restaurants,
as you say, selling high -need chicken rice or
whatever it might be. And so people are more
adept at knowing what they want, knowing how
things should be made in such a certain way,
and they will have their allegiances based on
their favourite restaurants. Whereas I would
say over here… a Thai restaurant opens and
there’s maybe only two in Glasgow. So of course
it will probably do well unless the food is utter
garbage. And so, you know, the idea of not being
able to share recipes because, you know, of the
prevalence of the same types of cuisines that
are all independents is vitally important as
your IP. Yeah. But as much as I understand where
Yong is coming from, this protectionism does
then risk the preservation of that culture, as
they both mentioned at the end. Yeah, I did think
it was interesting the way that he kind of did
this whole judging books by their covers and
stuff like that and the integrity of it. Integrity
has not come up as a barrier to the preservation
of culture in our research so far. But it’s certainly
a valid one and really… and kind of thoughtful
one i think the concept of packaging and how
we package our culture is a really important
one and young was the first interview that we
actually did yeah and when he said he didn’t
want to pass on his knowledge i was kind of shocked
But when you started talking about packaging,
I couldn’t stop thinking about it. Because as
the trip went on, all I could think about was
how we package our culture and how we package
our cuisine. Right. And that people care more
now about the packaging and the wrapping than
the actual substance of what’s inside. Yeah.
We saw a few episodes ago when we were talking
to David Neo and Lillian Tong of the Chinese
Peranakan community. And they were saying the
same thing, that Chinese Peranakan culture is
being commodified. to such a degree that it’s
no longer reflective of the actual culture. Yeah.
You see that with McDonald’s. McDonald’s is being
packaged in such a way that presents this American
burger culture, but is that what it actually
is? And then you think about Melaka, which I
just discussed as this UNESCO World Heritage
City, and how are we packaging that? as a Thai
floating market. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Authenticity
and I think something that we had a good think
about was cultural custodians to kind of make
sure that their cuisine and their culture, what
have you, is preserved properly. Yeah, yeah.
I think Yong’s story really adds another layer
of complexity to thinking about how do we talk
about our culture, how do we preserve our culture,
the role of individuals, the role of businesses.
and how messy this can all become when we start
thinking about authenticity, integrity, commodification,
cultural appropriation, but also modernism and
the need to adapt. I think one of the biggest
takeaways in the research of this podcast was
the… various different ways that people have
gone about preserving their culture, whether
it’s Ronnie from the Orang Aslis, you know,
making all of this video and photographic content
about, you know, the kind of the dress and the
music and what have you. And making new cultural
elements that didn’t exist. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah. And it kind of, I guess, maybe plugging
gaps or whatever it might be. And then, yeah,
to come total end of the spectrum with. with
Yong here and not wanting to preserve his, write
down his recipes. He wouldn’t even let us into
his kitchen. Like, you know, when we were there,
we were kind of curious, not to snoop, but just
to, you know, to observe, you know, this is a
restaurant that this guy has ran for decades
and absolutely forbidden. Like, you know, just
didn’t even want us to see how, like his mise
en place or the way that he has his jars and
whatever, kind of all set up. It’s all top secret.
It’s really been a fascinating experience to
talk to so many people in Malaysia at various
different stages of cultural preservation, if
you like, to hear their stories and to hear the
work they’re doing. So if you are in Malaysia,
I definitely encourage you to check out some
of those traditional Hainanese restaurants. And
if you can’t find them, do at least get some
chicken rice and go and visit a kopitiam. Yeah.
So if we go back to our food symbol of the day
though, chicken rice, for most people, like me,
a dish of comfort and a symbol of Hainanese culture
in Malaysia and Singapore. But there’s always
that much deeper story and I think chicken rice
is a reminder of the Hainanese community and
their role in Malaya in the service industry.
in catering to those wealthy British households
during the days of the empire. So I think it’s
really important to remember and to acknowledge
that point in history. Yeah, we’ve covered a
great deal in this episode. I appreciate the
patience, hopefully, of our listeners, if any
of you are hanging on, about how much history
we have covered and how much philosophical thought
goes into the preservation of culture. Yeah,
absolutely. And that’s the end, not just of the
episode, but of the whole season. It has been
a crazy ride, Philip. What an adventure. Over
the past episodes, we have been on such a
massive historical journey of the Malay Peninsula.
My brain is bursting with information. Mine is
too. We’ve seen how the land and the people have
been transformed by trade and colonization. And
we see all that in the culture and cuisine today.
And I really hope our listeners have gotten something
out of this podcast. It’s been a massive joy
to produce. I’ve learned a lot making it. And
so I hope others have really enjoyed it as well.
Yeah, I feel the same way. You know, I’ve gotten
so much out of this as an outsider and I hope
that non -Malaysians have gotten as much out
of it as I might have. Indeed. And, you know,
we have to say thank you to all the guests that
we’ve had on this season for giving up their
time, sharing us their stories. They’ve been
so generous. Yes, the Malaysian hospitality being
afforded to us has been quite immense. Indeed.
But Philip, we’re not ending things here. This
is just the end of season one and we’ve got lots
more to share for you in season two because there’s
a whole other part of Malaysia that we haven’t
really explored much and that is the Borneo.
side of Malaysia. I feel like those people in
Sarawak and Sabah feel forgotten about once again.
Yeah but folks in Borneo if you’re listening
we haven’t forgotten about you. And we’ve got
plenty of stories and interviews from Sarawak
and Sabah to share with you next season. We’re
going to explore the peoples of Borneo, the history,
the cuisine, the culture of today. We’re also
going to look at how the Malay Peninsula and
Borneo were impacted by World War II, that long
road to independence and what Malaysia is like
today. So it’s a jam -packed season that we’re
preparing for you right now. So thank you again,
everybody, for joining us on this journey. And
we hope to see you soon for season two of Satay.
Okay.