E5 – Spices and the Rise of Melaka

Hosted by Dr Noby Leong and Philip Gibson
Produced by Dr Noby Leong and Philip Gibson
Sound Design by Jack Barr

Satay? Okay! is produced by Kopi Productions Limited and supported by the Golden Chopsticks Scholarship, by the Oxford Cultural Collective Trust

A History of Malaysia (2016), Barbara Watson Andaya, Leonard Y. Andaya

The Melaka Chetti Kitchen Cookbook (2023), Julie Wong, David Neo, Melaka Chetti Heritage Association

The Melaka Chetti Heritage Association (Persatuan Warisan Chetti Melaka Malaysia)

The Science of Spice: Understand Flavour Connections and Revolutionize your Cooking (2018), Dr Stuart Farrimond

Chetti Museum – Jalan Gajah Berang, Kampung Chetti, 75200 Melaka, Malaysia

Wen’s Kitchen – 169, Jalan Tengkera, 75200 Melaka

Please note that this transcript may contain errors and typos

Welcome to Satay? Okay! A podcast about the foods
that have shaped Malaysia. I’m Dr. Noby Leong,
scientist, food writer and broadcaster. And I’m
Philip Gibson, photographer and lover of the
Spice Girls. And in this series, we explore the
history, cultures and cuisines of Malaysia from
the ancient lands of Southeast Asia all the way
through to the creation of a modern day nation.
In today’s episode, we take a look at spices
and the rise of malacca. So pour yourself a glass
of milk and get ready for satay. Okay, can I
get a zig -a -zig -a -ha? So in the last episode
we talked about the emergence of trade empires
in Southeast Asia and notably Srivijaya. And
so for years the empire of Srivijaya dominated
trade in the region connecting the huge economies
of India and China. But by the end of the th
century Srivijaya falls leaving a huge trade
vacuum that’s waiting to be filled. So today…
We kick things off in the th century and take
a look at how Malacca came to fill that void
and how events at that time influenced Malaysian
culture today. And so our culinary focal point,
the food emblem that connects all of us to this
point in time is spices. So, Philip, how would
you describe spices and not ginger, baby, sporty,
scary and posh? Well… That was definitely my
first five responses. Spices. Well, yeah, I think
of the smell, definitely, first. I remember when
I was learning to cook, I would go through my
parents’ spice cabinet and just kind of have
a smell of all of these things. But then whenever
I would maybe stick my finger into one of them
just to see what they actually tasted of, not
much. No, yeah. So it’s all in the aromatics.
So I would say it’s something that is… Integral
to food, but it is not the substance of the food.
Yeah. So spices are various parts of the plant
that produce strong aromas. So they could be
the leaves, the fruits, the seeds, the roots,
the flowers, stems, any part of the plant, which
smells amazing. Right. And so spices, when added
to the dish, provide aromas and sensations. They
don’t provide taste. Right. So aromas or sensations.
things that like tingle in the tongue, things
that make us warm. Maybe the fragrance is very
fruity and floral. Maybe it’s sulfurous. Maybe
it’s citrusy. Maybe it’s like earthy and nutty.
So these are all things that you can associate
with different spices. Got it. Okay. And they’re
actually the parts of the plant that it doesn’t
actually want you to eat. So plants have evolved
all these spice compounds as a deterrent. So
you were saying before that you would stick your
finger into spices and it would taste like nothing
or probably, they probably taste like nothing
because they were old. But in general, a fresh
spice would taste bitter and that bitterness
is supposed to ward us off. Yeah, I would not
describe it to my parents. I don’t think that
they would have routinely used things like nutmeg,
for example, or maybe even turmeric. but the
reason why we as humans really like spices is
because we’re eating them in such small quantities
in a dish that we experience what some scientists
call constrained risk and this mainly applies
to peppery pungent spices like black pepper chili
and mustard rather than say something earthy
like turmeric and so what constrained risk means
is that we know that this is harmful Right. But
we’re consuming it in such small quantities that
we know it’s not really going to hurt us. But
what this does is it kind of creates a little
adrenaline boost that makes us really excited,
makes our tongue go crazy, kind of like riding
a roller coaster. Okay, so controlled nihilism.
Yeah. Right, okay. Yeah, yeah. That’s an interesting
way to put it. Does this mean that we all have
personality disorders? I mean, who doesn’t? Well…
So because of the unique properties of spices,
there’s really no substitute for pepper. There’s
no substitute for, you know, all these different
spices. And that’s why that’s so popular. And
it’s probably the first spice that people will
come into is salt and pepper. And so pepper being
that kind of warm, hot, fiery. And salt being
the taste. Right, yeah. So together, salt and
pepper create a full flavor profile for it. Lots
of different dishes. I would imagine, given that
it’s such a prevalent ingredient in the UK, it
must have been one of the first spices to get
over here. Possibly, but there are spices that
are native to Europe that probably would be easier
for Brits to have obtained, historically. Were
we arsed by it, though. We do love it in Malaysia,
though. So there are some that are more popular
in Malaysia than others, certainly. But we’ve
got lots of spice traditions, and most of them
involve curry. Right. You know, we’ve got curry
based noodle dishes like laksa. Oh, yeah. We
have a dish called nasi kandar, which is a curry
dish from Penang, where you take rice and you
flood it with all kinds of gravy. We have
-hour eateries called mamuks, where you can go
there any time of the day, and they have, you
know, curries in their bain -marie, and you just,
like, load yourself up. We also do curry cocktails,
spice cocktails in the modern age. In the, yeah,
well, that’s true. In Georgetown, we did manage
to, you got to have what? Was it a Laksa curry?
I got a Laksa cocktail. Laksa cocktail, yeah,
yeah, yeah. And yes, it did have Blachan. Which
is? Which in the last episode we discussed was
a fermented shrimp paste. Yeah, and I think you
remember saying that as the drink, as the ice
thawed, melted, and then… The drink warmed
up. You got more and more of those aromas start
to hit you. Yeah, it became more bludgeoning
as the drink went on, which was not a positive
quality. No, I feel like the bartender didn’t
expect you to take half an hour to drink it.
I was on cocktail three, wasn’t I? Was it? I
don’t remember. Well, sign of a good night. Anyway.
So yeah, in Malaysia, spices are probably universally
used. The only… cultures that i think don’t
use a lot of spice are the indigenous borneo
cultures i’m trying to think back but i think
you’re right it was a lot of kind of like blanched
and stewed vegetables and meats yeah yeah yeah
so some of these spices have been traded globally
for you know more than a thousand years and they
often had super high value attached to them because
back in the day you could only really get the
spice from its source from the land it was grown
in right and so what these spice traders would
do was to invent myths and stories about how
they would obtain the spice in order to keep
it lucrative right in order to be like oh don’t
come to my homeland to get the spices it’s far
too dangerous just buy it from me so some of
the myths are quite fun so cinnamon um was apparently
obtained uh from the nest of a great bird. So
this bird would use cinnamon bark to make its
nests on tall mountains. Right. And so only by
sacrificing an oxen or some other large beast
could you distract the bird for long enough for
some sort of brave trader to sneak up and steal
the spice from the nest. This is God of Marks
and Spencers. This isn’t just any cinnamon. This
is, you know… abseiled, hand -sourced, fought
off a large bird. Stolen produce. Uh -huh. Sent
,kilometres across the… I don’t know
what that C is. Just for your Christmas pudding.
Just, uh -huh. And then there’s cassia. And apparently
Arab spice traders would tell stories about bringing
cassia to the market and they would say that
cassia was guarded… by a terrifying bat -like
creature who lived in the middle of a lake. I’m
kind of getting like, you know, in Shrek where
Princess Fiona is up in a tower and being guarded
by a dragon. So you had to hire an ogre and a
talking donkey in order to get Cassia. So spices
do come from all over the world. And I think
people would be surprised where the spices in
their pantry. originated from right yeah yeah
i think so so philip i think we’re going to do
a little game go on then i have a family recipe
for curry powder we use it for quite a lot of
things but particularly we use it for chicken
curry the curry powder has five different spices
and you have to guess the origin of these five
spices okay okay let’s start with turmeric okay
right i know that’s a rhizome or like a root
so i’m I’m thinking, because turmeric is used
so heavily, I would say, in Indian food, in curries
and what have you. And then I’m also thinking
of, like, ginger being in, like, masala chai
and stuff like that. It must be Indian. Correct.
Turmeric probably originated from India. Next,
chilli. I think I know too much, and I’m going
to say that I think it comes from South America.
Correct. It does come from probably Central and
South America. Cumin. Cumin? The name doesn’t
even give anything away. Not that I would know.
If you had to guess. If I had to guess, where
does cumin come from? Wild card, North Africa.
Close, actually. Yeah, it comes from Egypt. Oh,
shit. Well, there you go. There you go, yeah.
And the last two, they come from the same place.
They’re fennel and coriander. I’m going to say
they’re maybe European because I’ve read a book
about some ancient Greek poetry because I’m an
asshole like that. And I’m maybe going to say
like Greece or Turkey or somewhere. Pretty much
the Mediterranean. Okay. There you go. Wow. Yeah.
That was pretty good. I’m surprised myself. I
would like to, as a disclaimer, I have not done
any prior research before recording this episode.
This is stuff that exists in my… Enormous brain.
Tells you a lot about Philip. So we have this
Leong family curry powder in which none of the
spices in it actually come from Malaysia or Southeast
Asia. So this goes to show just how global spices
are and just how much they circulated around
the world. But there are some spices that are
definitely unique to Southeast Asia. So lemongrass,
ginger, galangal, they’re all very tropical Asian.
plants um and then there’s also cloves nutmeg
and mace and those all come from what historically
people call the spice islands in indonesia which
has such like mysticism around it doesn’t it
the spice islands sounds so mysterious well i
think it yeah yeah i think what do i think of
i mean like the indonesian archipelago is so
enormous and there’s so many islands what
or something so many in indonesia today yeah
um it’s so volcanic it’s right on the equator
it is like it’s that way where you imagine you
go to every different island and you come across
a different spice in every one of them and so
that connects us uh to where we left off in the
last episode with the fall of Srivijaya in the
th century. And this is centered around Pulambang
in Sumatra. Pulambang and Malayu. Malayu. Both
of which are in Sumatra. Right. So Srivijaya
falls and someone needs to kind of take up that
baton. Well, it’s not like someone needs to,
but you know, you’ve got, you know, all this
trade waiting to be scooped up. Yeah. Yeah. It’s,
yeah, it would be an opportunity to, It would
be a hard opportunity to miss. So someone does
take up that tantalising little cherry and attempts
to establish a new empire in what would become
the city of Malacca. Which on a quick recap of
geography, if anybody’s looking at a map, they’ll
see where Sumatra is and then across the sea
is the peninsula of Malaysia and you may see
south of Kuala Lumpur, the capital, a city called
Malacca. Which is where I was born. There you
go. So it’s a very, very old city. and has a
lot of historical significance for Malaysia.
So how did it come to be settled? A few different
stories of how it got settled. There are some
differences, but the general people involved
and the events are quite similar. So the two
main accounts talk about a refugee prince from
Srivijaya who lived in Palembang in Sumatra.
He was either named Parameswara or… Seri Teri
Melayu. And Seri Teri Melayu was a descendant
of Alexander the Great. Okay. Yes. I’ll explain
Alexander the Great later. It does have relevance.
That’s quite a claim to fame. Yes. Like one of
the most famous, like, you know, warriors and
military officers in the world. Emperor even
probably. So the stories talk about this refugee
prince and he left Pulambang with an army of
Orang Lawut. So remembering Orang Lawut are the
seafarers, the naval force, essentially, of these
trade empires. So the prince flees because there
are tensions with neighboring empires. Right.
So he goes to the island of Singapore and hangs
out there for a little while. We should preface
this that this is before any European intervention
on that island. And it was just a bit of a swampy,
marshy… Swampy, marshy island. No skyscrapers.
Yes. No Chanel’s. No Cartiers, no Marina Bay
Sands, no Garden Bays of the Bay. None of that.
And so this prince and his family stay there
for either five years or for five generations.
Right. After that, a member of this family leaves
Singapore, not sure why, and they head up north
and eventually settle upon Malacca. Here, they
come across what’s known as a mouse deer. So
this is just a really small deer. And the mouse
deer attacks one of their hunting dogs. This
is seen as a really good omen. This site is apparently
strong and really suitable for this royal family
to set up their next empire. And so they do.
And they set up the port of Malacca. So this
port now attempts to function much the way Srivijaya.
It wants to connect traders from India and China.
They can stop off here, restock, refuel everything.
They can buy up products from the jungle like
woods, resins, exotic birds, sea products, and
of course, spices. And Malacca becomes a particularly
good collection point for those very specific
Southeast Asian spices like cloves, nutmeg, and
mace, which you cannot get anywhere else in the
world. And so they end up having a bit of a monopoly
on the trade. So they’re starting to increase
because of their spices. But then in the
Malaccan ruler makes a drastic step to try and
boost their economy even further. And what he
does is converts not just himself to Islam, but
the entirety of his empire becomes Muslim overnight.
And he probably converts to Islam for lots of
different reasons. One of them is that he can
now call himself a sultan, which is a title above…
Raja, which is the current highest title. Right.
So he’s more prestigious, more reputable in this
way. Secondly, he can connect himself to a long
lineage of other Muslim leaders with a lot of
eminence, like Alexander the Great. Oh. So Alexander
the Great has different interpretations of who
he is, depending if you’re looking at Islamic
texts or other texts. But the other main economic
reason why he would want to convert to Islam
is that it now gave him access to Muslim Indian
cloth merchants. And at the time, textiles were
a basic commodity of trade. So the conversion
to Islam allowed Malacca to really outcompete
the neighboring trade empires. And it kind of
did work. They began to expand in terms of their
economy and also their territory expanded. So
other ports around Nusantara started to align
themselves with Malacca, just as they had done
so with Srivijaya. To curry favour? To curry
favour, yeah. But we will point out that curry
in curry favour does not actually come from the
dish curry. It comes from a French word, which
means to groom or to rub down. So by the early
th century, Malacca, people are saying that
there’s ,boats anchoring at any one time.
The value of goods coming out of it is massive,
and the population is perhaps up to ,
people. That is a very high end of the estimate.
But that is very high for that time in history.
It would have made it probably one of the biggest
cities on Earth, probably. Possibly, yeah. But,
you know, Malacca, you can think of it as like…
Edinburgh during Fringe Festival, where the population
booms and busts. Oh, okay, between the monsoon
winds. Exactly. Right, okay. So to recap, because
that was a lot of information, Philip. Yes. Malacca
fills the trade void left by Srivijaya. Yes.
Malacca grows in power thanks to spices and the
conversion to Islam. Okay. And from the beginning
of the th century to the beginning of the th
century, Malacca becomes a trade empire. Got
it. And so this does have quite profound implications
for our culture today. Right. So if you think
about what the dominant religion in Nusantara
is today, it’s Islam. Well, it spreads all the
way from the south of the Philippines through
Indonesia, Brunei and Malaysia. And because this
is a food podcast, cuisine is very much influenced
by religion. You have halal foods and haram foods.
It also influences language. So Malay becomes
now the lingua franca, that language that everyone
speaks in the region, because you have this dominant
port and you need to speak the language of the
dominant port. If you want to do business. Yeah.
So what historians have found is that places
in Sumatra and Java might have had their own
language and spoke their own language, but they
also spoke Malay. There’s still a lot of dialects
that are spoken across that whole region, though.
But yeah, the common one would be… Yeah, yeah.
So like today, the official languages of Brunei,
Malaysia, Singapore, they’re… malay and then
in indonesia you have indonesian but that is
a variety of malay they’re very similar languages
yeah rooted in it yeah but there are other parts
of malaysia’s culture today that have their origins
in the malaccan empire so by the th century
one trader noted that malacca was becoming very
very cosmopolitan they heard different languages
being spoken in malacca including Gujarati, Tamil,
Chinese, Javanese, but also Japanese and Armenian.
So you have cultures from all around the world
that are settling in Malacca. It’s quite a long
way from Japan and Armenia. Really, really far.
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or visit our website, sateok .com. And so all
these different cultural communities… are not
just kind of passing through. Some of them are
also settling down here, as they had probably
done so in Srivijaya’s days. In particular, Chinese
communities, Indian communities, Javanese, Thai.
At the time of Malacca’s empire, this gives rise
to a whole suite of new cultures called Peranakan.
Early traders from other countries, and they
were always men. So Chinese men, Indian men,
etc. Settling in… the Malay Peninsula and then
marrying local Malay women. Right. And what emerged
from these unions and these communities was a
hybrid culture, and Peranakan is the name of
that hybrid culture. Are you familiar with that
word, Philip? Today I’m familiar with the word
Peranakan, but beforehand, probably not. But
I think as I was… learning more about malaysia
i think the word pranikin was word that was used
a lot i guess when you think about the fact that
this was maritime trade and then you think about
these monsoon winds which are seasonal if you
miss the exit you are stuck in these ports for
six months and well men have an itch that need
to be scratched sometimes so and it’s it’s quite
possible that you know these early men probably
had multiple families yeah well yeah it would
not surprise me if they were strategic about
it. I could see a sailor having a family in both
places and neither of them obviously know about
the other one because it’s pre -internet, pre
-whatever. Facebook stalk. Yeah, you can’t Facebook
stalk your husband’s whereabouts. But because
they were coming and going pretty regularly with
the monsoon winds, they could spend six months
in their homeland and then six months at the
Malaccan port. Doesn’t take much to imagine.
No, exactly. So you can see how these cultures
and these communities emerged. Yes. And so when
you say about these cultures, what exactly, other
than the fact that they would be having mixed
race children, what was that then? Integration
of the rest of life through diet, religion? Yeah,
all of that. So their communities often… did
a little bit of the male side’s culture and a
little bit of the woman’s side’s culture. So
they might speak Malay, but their religion might
be Hindu. Oh, okay. They might combine the spices
of Malay cuisine with the noodles of Chinese
cuisine. Okay, which is where Laksa came from.
Which is where Laksa comes from. And so it was
a fusion, a hybrid in many, many ways. So many
different types of Peranakans, as I mentioned.
My grandmother on my mother’s side was a Chinese
Peranakan. Okay. So she was like a Nyonya. Right.
Which is what you would call a woman of Chinese
Peranakan heritage. Which explains why there
was so much Nyonya curry getting served up in
your parents’ house. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. But
in this episode, we’re going to take a look at
one of the other Peranakan cultures. We’re going
to take a look at the Indian Peranakan culture,
which probably doesn’t get as much press. I certainly
hadn’t heard of it prior to us going over there
this year. And possibly the reason is that Indian
Peranakans actually don’t typically call themselves
Indian Peranakans. What’s more common is the
term Melaka Chetti. So Malacca in reference
to… the origin the malaccan empire and chetti
is likely referenced to Chettinad in india which
is the indian part of their heritage okay Melaka
Chetti’s yeah that makes sense i think i remember
when we were there a couple of years back um
you talked about um like kampong jetty which
is a suburb of malacca and so when we are talking
about how or sorry languages are being
spoken in malacca um during the height of its
kind of trading empire You would find like in
today’s like big multicultural cities that there
would be suburbs of those cities that would be
your Chinese suburb, your Indian suburb and things
like that. And so when we think about Malacca
and these languages being spoken, people would
have gravitated around, I guess, temples of their
religions or marketplaces or whatever it would
have been that would have tied those kind of
communities together. So we wanted to find out
more. So we spoke to two members of the Melaka
Chetti Heritage Association of Malaysia. We spoke
to Amuda and Nirmala. So we were invited to Nirmala’s
home. And she now lives in Kuala Lumpur, but
she grew up in Kampong Chetti. And she showered
us with a very generous banquet, showcasing Melaka
Chetti cuisine, because they have their own specific
cuisine. And Melaka Chetti hospitality. Which
was very, very generous as well. Yeah. We were
also given a dance lesson. Oh, yes. And we listened
to their story about life growing up. in the
ancestral village of Kampong Chetti. They told
us who the Melaka Chetti are, what their culture
is, and the work they’re doing to keep their
culture alive. It was a really, really fascinating
interview for someone who knew nothing about
it. Absolutely. Here they are. Okay, my name
is Amu. That is what I’m known among my friends.
But in the kampong, in our Melaka Chetti kampong,
I’m known as Amuda. I would be fourth, fifth
generation of Melaka Chetti. My name is Nirmala
Devi, but my full name is actually Nirmala Devi,
daughter of Palani Maniam, alias Palani Paditi
Subramaniam. So if you call out my full name,
it will be my name, my father’s name, my grandfather’s
name, and my great -grandfather’s name. And it
is very reflective of what’s important for the
Chetti community, our ancestors. So that was
you know the thinking behind my name and it’s
also the same for my other siblings They’ll have
in their name registered Legal registered name.
Yeah, so name will have your father’s name grandfather’s
name and great -grandfather’s name So we will
never forget them. So every time we mention our
full name, it’s all their names included. Although
we are you know like a hybrid you know mixed
right but you would notice that a lot of our
Melaka Chetti names are very tamil sounding names
like my name for example okay i’ve got a short
name and the kampung name but officially i’m
known as amudavadi that’s a very tamil name you
know in fact it’s not even a tamil name because
normally it’d be amudavali then you know it’s
a tamilian but mine is i don’t know if i found
anyone has got the same name as me i mean you
know it’s but still a lot of people don’t
know we exist But this is what Melaka Chetti is
like. We have Tamil names. We follow our Hindu
religion. We are very steadfast in our rituals
and cultures and all. But we speak Malay. Our
food is very unique in its sense. I would say
the Tamils don’t know where to place us. Sometimes
they even ask, because you have got that Malay
in you, do you take beef? Some of us do, some
of us don’t. Those who pray who don’t. So that
is like being a Melaka Chettis. We always have
to explain to people what we are. You can forgive
the international people who don’t know who we
are, but Malaysians don’t know who we are. In
fact, I don’t know whether everybody in Melaka
knows who we are. Maybe not. If you don’t know
who Melaka Chettis are, that’s not surprising.
As Nirmala explains, she’s constantly had to prove
her identity to other people. So I was born in
Kampong Chetti. We have an ancestral home in Kampong
Chetti. It was actually called Kampong Tujuh before
it was called Kampong Chetti. So it is the first
house as you enter Kampong Chetti. So that is the
Padiachee house. So I’m a Padiachee and our ancestral
home is still there. We have, of course, when
I was growing up… We had like probably five
families living together in that ancestral home
and my grandmother was of course the matriarch
so you know we all had to you know follow what
she says and we all grew up under the influences
of our uncles our aunties and a lot of the Melaka
Chetti ways and customs. When I left Kampong
Chetti to move to KL University, and that was
when other Indians started asking me, you don’t
speak Tamil? And I said, no. But you’re Indian?
And they said, yes. So they were confused about
where to place us. And I was confused as to why
they didn’t understand us. At some point, I was
also confused about my own identity. What do
you mean I have to speak Tamil because I’m Indian?
I don’t speak Tamil. Nobody in my household speaks
Tamil. My grandmother doesn’t speak Tamil. Then
they asked, do you wear a sari? Then I said,
no, my grandmother doesn’t wear a sari going
to the temple. She wears sarong like what you
see today. And they said, oh, then you are not
Indian. Then I said, no, I’m Indian. So, you
know, it was a lot of soul searching back then.
But what happened was after I graduated, I was
fortunate enough because my uncles were very
much active in terms of trying to create awareness
about the Melaka Chetti identity. And that was
when I guess I got roped in to start on a working
paper to introduce ourselves, our history to
the Melaka government. So it was actually a comprehensive
paper that I put together with photos and all
because you know it was like for me it was a
little bit of a soul searching and trying to
understand what our community, who we are. You
exist to the government? Yes. And it was after
that that you know we had the government, the
Chief Minister of Malacca who came to visit the
village and then Then there was a little bit
more understanding or awareness about the Melaka
Chettis community because before that we were
just in that kampung, we knew each other. We
just existed. So who are the Melaka Chettis?
A lot of times we get asked this question, who
are the Melaka Chettis? And of course we always
say that our forefathers are Indian traders.
who married local women and we are the outcome of
this mixed marriage. So if you look at it, and
sometimes I must be very honest, I think of it
and I say, these women who married all these
Indian traders, they actually don’t speak Tamil.
don’t know what it’s like in their husband’s
homeland, the religious practices, the culture,
but they have succeeded, I guess, in terms of
localizing certain aspects of Hinduism that we
practice. So you’ll find that for Melaka Chetis,
we are Hindus. We are Saivites. All the major
Hindu religious festivals, we observe them. There
are differences a little bit because of the hybrid
culture. other than that we are very very much
Hindu and it’s thanks to all these women over
the years you know who don’t know what is where
India is what it’s like but they have actually
succeeded in you know maintaining that practice
and passing it on to the next generation and
I think it’s also very important to note right
like it was actually the women who were like
holding on to all these prayers you know all
these rituals they we learned everything from
our you know maternal side you know, our grandmothers,
you know. Because the men would come and go.
They would, you know, come to Malacca, stay,
you know, until the wind changes, then they go
back to India, then they come back again. So,
it is basically the women. And if I asked, when
I asked my father, he’d say, you know, he doesn’t
remember much of his great -grandfather or grandfather.
It was always his great -grandmother and grandmother
who were very predominant. you know, in his life.
And it’s very much so, I think, for a lot of,
you know, Melaka Chettis in that generation.
Traditional way of life for Melaka Chettis was
very different to what it is now. And Nirmala
and Amuda shared what was life like growing
up in Kampong Chetti. Back then, the community,
people were very close -knit. Because, like,
for me, from the first house as you enter the
kampong, I have to walk all the way across the
village and to get to school but you know coming
back from school if i’m late every house you
have the matriarch will be outside the house
and say why are you late today you’re supposed
to be back at one o ‘clock Every home. And every
home you pass by and you see this old lady sitting
outside, you call them and greet them. So that
is the kind of respect and the kind of care that
the community had for each other when I was growing
up. And I’m not sure if that is happening today.
For me growing up in the village itself, because
we lived very near to the temple. A lot of our
daily life goes according to the temple timing
as well. So because we live near the temple,
so the temple’s prayer will start at It is
my responsibility to make sure that the house
is fully cleaned, as in swept and mopped and
everything, before the temple bell rings. It
has to be that way because you’re not allowed
to… to like clean the house or have a broom
in front of the house when the temple is you
know having a prayer and even in the morning
you know they start prayer about seven and before
I go to school my altar has to be lit that is
how growing up in the kampong ceti is like I
don’t know whether the Hindus follow like that
even if they were to stay near the temple we
don’t cook meat on certain days even like be
sorry like maybe mutton or lamb fish and that’s
allowed but anything that’s bloodied it’s not
allowed and you’re absolutely right because growing
up also because you know in the village you’ve
got a temple at the entrance and you’ve got a
temple at the end of the village so the the daily
routine is governed by the temple bells so seven
o ‘clock the temple bell uh the inside temple
will ring so that will mean that we we should
be leaving the house and you know on the way
to school and in the evening when the temple
bell rings it means the altar must be lit and
everyone must have you know prayed showered and
prayed so it sets the discipline i guess Those
traditions, however, have changed and few still
follow the timings of the temple. Maybe over
time it would have changed because you know if
people were still living there has gone to work,
right? Because maybe for us at that time because
we were still children So, you know, we just
have a school but if those who still live there
probably, you know They go to work and they come
back eight nine o ‘clock. They can’t keep to
that timing So that that might have changed but
maybe those nearby might still follow. We’re
not too sure about it, you know, it’s maybe Certain
things like, you know, you’re not allowed to
certain parts certain times of the month. You’re
not allowed to go close to them Maybe that they
still follow, but the temple bell ring, maybe
not anymore. Now you see that in my generation,
after school a lot of the younger ones left.
the kampong, the village, to further their education
and then of course to work. And that has also
changed the structure of the families in the
community. Because back then you have three to
five families in one home. Now it’s just one
family in one home. So yes, it has changed. The
community has evolved in Kampong Chetti. And I
guess that’s only natural. But what’s more important
is that how we preserve our heritage in this
changing world. Because the world will change,
it’s more globalized now. When I was in KL, it
was just about being a Melaka Chetti in KL. But
now it is being a Melaka Chetti in this whole global
context. And I see that, for example, in my children.
they identify themselves as also a Melaka Chetti.
And for them, they say, okay, I’m a Melaka Chetti
overseas. So how do I then maintain a little
bit of my roots, my mother’s heritage? So this
is where I think people in my generation have
a responsibility to pass on what we know and
help this future generation to practice. their
heritage to live their heritage in this modern
environment so that’s important a big part of
the cultural preservation is the cuisine especially
with the year’s main ancestral worship celebrations
food is very central to our culture just like
temple okay so if you talk about ancestral worship
our ancestral worship is laborious i guess work
takes five days a week to prepare. And of course,
the two important ones for us, ancestral worship,
is Parchu bogi that happens on the th of January,
on the eve of Pongal. That’s where for us, Melaka
Chetti is extremely grand. And in the past, it
was even more grand compared to Deepavali. yeah
because that’s when you know families will get
wherever you are you come back you participate
yeah with you help with the preparation and you
know all my aunties will be roped in everybody
has to to help you know prepare for the prayers
you know cook the food you know cut the vegetables
it’s a lot of work and you know this is where
also you you have to show finesse in terms of
how you handle the knife, because you’re supposed
to slice everything very thinly, as thinly as
possible. So that was, I guess, how important
food is to us. For Parchu bogi, for example,
is an elaborate affair. five to seven banana
leaves each leaf will have at least to
dishes and the main dish there is of course the
nasi lemak you have to get it right and you don’t
cook it in the rice cooker you have to steam
it twice so a lot of work there and the most
important thing is that For Parchu, the preparation
for all these dishes, you are not supposed to
be talking when you’re preparing it for hygienic
reasons and also out of respect of the tasks
that you’re doing. And when you cook the food,
you’re not supposed to taste it beforehand. So
you’re just going to season it. And of course,
these are all… seasoned experienced cooks so
they know how much salt to put and all that but
you’re not supposed to taste it beforehand so
it’s supposed to be cooked prepared and then
laid on the banana leaves and then we have our
prayers we invite our ancestors to come and partake
you know the offerings and after we’ve completed
the prayers that’s when everyone in the family
will sit on the floor and will you know eat the
food but you see that that is where the problem
comes in because you know parichu being so big
to us so important to us you know everybody come
back and there’s really an air of festivities
right how do you avoid not talking and laughing
and having a beer at the same time right so it
gets difficult but we are always reminded that
the ancestors are coming to eat you have to show
some respect you know so even the the the way
we cut the vegetables the way we julienne the
onions and all maybe the normal cooking will
be like you know finely just chop nicely but
when we do that we have to like nicely cut it
so that it looks take for example water spinach
normally when we eat we’ll just like probably
chop it up right but when we want to do for prayers
we’ll you know like slice it very thinly because
once you cooked it it becomes very delicate Not
only is it pleasing to the eyes, it’s tasty and
it looks presentable. So that’s how it’s done.
So food is just not about life, it’s about emotions
and also it’s about our reverence to our ancestors.
It has to be done that way. That is another thing
that I noticed with the Indians that when they
cook for their ancestors, they don’t mind tasting
it, whereas we don’t and we have followed until
today. We pray, we say, you know, ancestors,
please help me. I’m going to be doing this. Give
me your blessing so that everything turns out
good. And most of the time it turns out okay,
you know. But of course, you know, you have to
have done this many, many times, at least a little
bit for you to understand. But forgiven if you,
one or two, you know, near miss. But it’s okay.
But yeah, food is very, very central for us only
because we have got this prayer. The importance
of food and the realisation that traditions are
changing prompted the community to get together
to make a cookbook. The cookbook was initiated
by two academics, Julie Wong and David Neo, who
partnered with many members of the Melaka Chetti
community. But this was not an easy process.
There was a lot of attempt, you know, to put
together a cookbook for the community. But then
it… It did not succeed because the earlier
attempts, because people were very protective
of their own recipes. And then what happened
was that the writers, Julie, she approached us
and she said, hey, you know, Singapore Melaka
Chetti is planning on a cookbook. Shall we have
a conversation and develop one for the Melaka
Chetti community? And then that was when we said,
yeah, we jumped on it and said yes. I think it’s
probably written in the stars that we should
get something going. But as the discussion continued,
I guess we had different goals and ambitions
as to how we wanted our book to materialise.
So we parted ways. Singapore had their own and
then we went on with our own initiative. And
of course, we are very grateful to Julie and
also David who are the writers. They’ve had,
I must say, a lot of patience with us because
we are all very, very protective of our own recipes.
And if you look at the Melaka Chetti community,
in every household, every clan, we all have a
little bit of… you know the food that we prepare
is a little bit different from one community
from one family to another based on the flavors
that we like as a family but you know ultimately
I guess we found some middle ground so what we
did was developed a whole list of recipes you
wouldn’t believe the number of calls that we’ve
had you know those sometimes heated calls which
yeah then we said okay let’s stop the conversation
for tonight we’ll get back tomorrow but in a
way you know we have a I guess a strong bond
for all those who are involved in this project
for us it is the shared love for what we are
doing today and the belief that this is for a
good cause that has kept us going and I think
you can see the bond that we have And I must
admit that this has been a journey of self -discovery
for me. I knew food which was just our everyday
food and those food that we prepare for our ancestral
prayers. But from this book, I realized that
there were many more which I didn’t know. So
we put together a thinking cap. put together
a whole list of food that you know we all eat
at home and of course those the people that were
involved what we did was we actually roped in
the matriarchs in the main clans and these are
women whom you don’t see on social media but
they have a wealth of knowledge and we felt that
if we don’t tap that knowledge and if we don’t
document it it will be lost forever So that,
I guess, ignited our passion to complete this
book as quickly as we could because in doing
so, we had, of course, one recipe contributor
who passed on before the book was completed.
So for us, it was really a race against time
to collate and put together all this information
in one book. in which everybody can refer to
you know at any point if they want to prepare
an ancestral worship in their own home to be
honest sorry when my sister said about this cookbook
i wasn’t very happy about it because there’s
a lot of recipes in there that i did not want
to go out you know My mother was one of the elders,
so she knew a lot of things. My mother was illiterate,
but she knew a lot of things from learning. I
was afraid people might claim it’s theirs. They
would just change something and say, oh, this
is ours actually, just like how Malaysia and
Singapore are fighting over chicken rice. But
I was very glad that this book came. You see,
what happened was, in my family, when we have
prayers and all, like I said, I was always the
one who chop, chop, chop. I never needed to know
anything until I started losing one by one of
my family. And my sister was one of the recipe
contributors. She was a proud Melaka Chetti woman.
You know, she could cook with her eyes closed.
So I never needed to know how to cook. So after
she passed on, although the book wasn’t published
yet, I had to, you know, search. on the draft
copies on how am I going to prepare these
dishes for the days prayer. If this book hadn’t
happened, I would have failed miserably. I would
have had to call a lot of my relatives and ask.
And that would have been an embarrassment to
my mum because she never needed to ask anyone.
Everything was in her head. All these things
like how it’s supposed to be done. I had used
the draft copy as my guidance. The cookbook proved
critical to bringing together the community and
ensuring the next generation has the resources
to get to know their own culture. And the race
is on to preserve the culture for the future.
We are shrinking, crazily shrinking. And it is
a worry. Everybody marries up. Yeah, you can’t
marry in because then you’ll be marrying your
relative. We don’t want that, right? So you can
marry up, but do you still want to maintain your
culture? Or do you want to take the easy one
and say no? The future generation, they might
say, I want to get to know my culture all over
again. there you have a guide you know you can’t
say oh my grandmother died so i don’t know how
to do it at least now my my nephew’s wife they
are nothing like us you know they’re very tamil
you know in fact to them our parchu was like such
a such a uh um and all to them you know she was
showing the the video to her uncles you know
oh this is how they do it and then she was telling
about how the food tasted and all and she wants
to learn a little bit which is good but um Without
this book, I think a lot of people like me would
be really, really lost. And do we want to follow?
Do we say it’s too hard? And if we don’t have
this, what else do we have? We’re not just a
kebaya -wearing people. We should not just be
that. Especially when you lose sight of the biggest,
the glue of the family, which is our ancestor
praise and all. So there’s nothing left. What
is the biggest threat in any community? It’s
intermarriage and migration. So when you migrate,
people who live overseas, they can’t do Pachu,
it’s impossible. So they have to come back. But
how often can you come back? And if you want
to do like Bulan Bebunga, where we put the flowers
in the front door, you have different time zones.
So eventually people just don’t follow. Exactly.
Yes, is migration. Exactly. And then even if
intermarriage, right, whereas the Melaka Chetti
part of the heritage is more dominant than perhaps,
but if supposing you have intermarriage and the
other culture is more dominant, even in the kitchen,
who rules the kitchen? right if you have someone
who’s like perhaps if you’re married to say maybe
a Eurasian and then you’re a Melaka Chetti but
then she’s the cook or he’s the cook so you end
up eating Eurasian food all the time it’s always
like that like any other small communities we
face challenges you know internal you know in
within the community we’ve got different groups
with different priorities but What’s going to
be more important is for us to realise that the
threat is not within, the threat is external.
And that’s why we should come together and look
at the bigger picture about how we can preserve
our legacy for the future generation. We cannot
start erecting fences and say, because your linkage
to the Melaka Chetti community is through the maternal
line, so then you’re not Melaka Chetti. We cannot
do that. Because if we do that, the community
will fade within the next years. And that’s
why we need to recognise whether you are a Melaka
Chetti through the maternal or paternal line, you
are a Melaka Chetti. And that is what we are trying
to drive at. So that people understand that regardless
whether my mother or my father is a Melaka Chetti,
I am a Melaka Chetti. And I have this… privilege
of you know being part of this hybrid community
and I also have this responsibility to now play
a role to you know create awareness about this
community and to pass it on to the next generation
so that they’ll be able to wherever they are
firstly be proud to of their identity one and
also learn how they can practice all our rituals
wherever they are. It may not be at home as in
one family, it could be with a few families doing
Parchu together. It will change. Our practices
will evolve and we must open ourselves to it.
We must accept and help this evolution move in
the right direction. We need to set the pace,
set the tone. I’m really hoping a lot more people
will be listening to us I mean like you know
we’ve done quite a number of interviews and especially
the younger ones that they have they have listened
to what we are trying to I would say maybe like
promote or you know making make them aware that
they want they want to be you know they want
to join us in pushing this forward you know it
shouldn’t just be us our generation it should
be the younger generation we need them you know
Yeah, join the association and see where we’re
going with this. You know, with more hands on
deck, we can do a lot more, right? Because like
now, it’s just recycling, you know? So we would
like to see more participation from the younger
people. I mean, even if, you know, the activists
out there who like to preserve culture, who’s
into preserving culture preservation, get in
touch with us, you know, and see how we can work
together because, oh, we are really, we’re dwindling.
Very handful of us. Like how we used to say,
we’re the last Mohicans. Yeah, so hopefully.
And for me personally, the next step is to pass
on this knowledge to the next generation. In
my mind, I still think of myself as that young
girl sitting outside my grandmother’s home watching
all these people coming back from work or going
to work. And then today, I look at my mum and
I look at the other recipe contributors and I
see that this is the current custodian of our
heritage. After them, it’s me. And I need to
make sure that I equip myself as best as I can.
And because of the position that I’m at today,
I was born before the internet era. I am now
in the internet era and moving on to the AI era.
So I’m in this advantageous position to make
sure that I can formulate something to pass on
to the next generation. So that for me is a personal
ambition. And that was Amuda and Namala from
the Melaka Chetti Heritage Association. So I
don’t know about you, Philip, but when we were
doing the interview, I was getting quite emotional.
I nearly cried a few times. It probably didn’t
help that Nirmala kind of reminded me of my mum,
the way that she looked. And I think they both
spoke with such passion, such urgency. as well
to keep their culture alive. And yeah, it was
a very emotional interview. They were so articulate,
I think, about all of the problems that they
faced, but also about their history and where
they have come from and so knowledgeable. And
I think the book that they prepared, The Melaka
Chetti Kitchen is like the labour of love that
that’s been to them. I think you sense that from
the conversation because it wasn’t just. Amuda
and Nirmala in the room. There was about five
representatives who contributed to the book.
Just a really really great group of people who
I think you know even her referring to the fact
that you know they would sit there on the phone
as they were trying to prepare this book and
then they would get so angry about no you can’t
prepare it this way no it has to be done like
that like they are so incredibly passionate about
it. I think it’s a bit of a different cultural
thing where these people are still actively hanging
on to and still have and live and were raised
with this culture, whereas some of the previous
contributors to this podcast have had to try
and rediscover their ancestry. I think they can
probably see the writing on the wall as though
it’s on its way out and they need to do what
they can to preserve it. There’s so many different
challenges that the different cultural groups
of Malaysia face. Right. And that’s, I think,
you know, what… this podcast has illuminated
to certainly me. Yeah. I don’t think when you
were planning this, you had anticipated that
you would be, not that you wouldn’t be speaking
to a lot of the underrepresented groups, but
that more and more would come out the woodwork
as we were over there. And this podcast was only
ever supposed to be about six episodes and it’s
now going to end up being about just because
we keep hearing more voices from these smaller
communities. And like, you know, Surprise Surprise,
a running theme with… so many of the cultures
we’ve spoken to is that they’re just fighting
to get acknowledged and they’re fighting just
for people to know that they exist. The fact
that she had to write an academic paper to prove
to the government that she’s real is insane.
Yeah, yeah. As I was writing notes for this episode,
every time I wrote Melaka Chetti, it kept getting
autocorrected to Melaka Cheetos. So what’s crazy
is that a chip brand has more international recognition
than a -year -old culture. Yeah, yeah. Let’s
pick up the Melaka Chetti, shall we? And as
they mentioned, they have made a cookbook. It’s
called the Melaka Chetti Kitchen. It’s a little
bit hard to get if you’re not in Malaysia and
Singapore, but if you can obtain this book, do
so because it is such an important reference.
And I can see the challenges that they would
have faced in putting together this cookbook.
If there are no other cookbooks that distill
this cuisine, how do you distill that cuisine?
How do you get everyone? involved because it
was an entire community that got together and
discussed what dishes are going to be in it,
what dishes typify Melaka Chetti cuisine and what
recipes typify that particular dish. But what
I think is beautiful is that the community did
come together. And how difficult is it in this
modern age for people to come together for a
united purpose and something as tricky and substantial
as a cookbook? Yeah, it’s the will, it’s the
determination of it. I think that’s what I find
to be so admirable. Yeah. This is coming from
the community that created the cuisine. They
are the custodians of it. And I think that was
something that she talks about, how the men came
and went with the wind, but it was the women
that stayed at home and created, preserved that
culture. It does sort of remind you of the importance
of women in… food culture today like you know
it’s such a cliche for chefs nowadays to be like
oh i was inspired by my mother or my grandmother
but the reason why is because they were the originators
of the culture yeah but that is not to say that
if you’re a man you shouldn’t be taking up that
mantle preservation of culture is up to everybody
yes to do so and not just when the trade winds
blow favorably exactly so if you are a tourist
or visitor that wants to know more Certainly
pick up the Melaka Chetti Kitchen Cookbook if
you’re in Malaysia or Singapore. It’s a fantastic
resource. You can also visit the Melaka Chetti
Museum if you’re in Melaka. And you can also
visit Wen’s Kitchen. And that’s the only restaurant
in probably Malaysia that actually does sell
Melaka Chetti food. So if we go back to our
history, Melaka Chetti’s originated… in Melaka
during the time of its empire from the early
th century to the early th century and spices
of course were a critical part of that empire
and continues to be a critical part of you know
malacca chetti cuisine and also a lot of malaysia’s
cuisines so spices is that perfect emblem for
malacca’s trade empire history however if you
were to visit malacca today you’re basically
not going to see any evidence of this critical
point in time. There is no royal palace. There’s
no great mosque that did exist back in the day.
All of that is gone. And the reason why it’s
not there anymore, because in the early th
century, everything changed for Malacca. And
what began was a period of European colonialism.
And that’s the fun subject of our next episode
entitled Sambal and the Portuguese Invasion.
Yes, those delicious spices that were exported
through the Silk Road and through maritime trade
and found their way to Europe. These enterprising
Portuguese wanted to cut out the middleman and
find them from the source. It’s a really, really
fascinating point in Malaysia’s history, really
fascinating stories that emerged there. So do
not miss the next episode. Of sauté. Okay.