E3 – Coconuts and the Land Before Borders

Hosted by Dr Noby Leong and Philip Gibson
Produced by Dr Noby Leong and Philip Gibson
Sound Design by Jack Barr

Satay? Okay! is produced by Kopi Productions Limited and supported by the Golden Chopsticks Scholarship, by the Oxford Cultural Collective Trust

Food of Singapore Malays: Gastronomic Travels Through the Archipelago (2021), Khir Johari
Dialogues by Khir
Dari Bumi Nusantara ke Piring Kita (2024), Maria Stephanie
Gunn BF, Baudouin L, Olsen KM (2011) Independent Origins of Cultivated Coconut (Cocos nucifera L.) in the Old World Tropics. PLoS ONE 6(6): e21143.
Contesting Malayness – Malay identity across Boundaries (2003), Timothy Barnard

Please note that this transcript may contain errors and typos

Welcome to Satay? Okay! A podcast about the foods
that have shaped Malaysia. I’m Dr. Noby Leong,
scientist, food writer and broadcaster. And I’m
Philip Gibson, photographer and Coconut Shy champion.
And in this series, we explore the history, cultures
and cuisines of Malaysia, from the ancient lands
of Southeast Asia, all the way through to the
creation of a modern day nation. in today’s episode
we take a look at coconuts and the land before
borders so get ready to put a lime in the coconut
because it’s time for satay okay so in the last
episode we looked at durian and the arrival of
the first people so for me durian is this really
beautiful culinary connection reminds us of how
ancient and old the lands of southeast asia actually
are And durian is that food that intrinsically
connects us to the jungle, to the animals, to
its people. And we took a look at indigenous
Orang Asli culture. So in today’s episode, we’re
looking at coconuts and the land before borders.
And so we’re jumping forward in time to about
years ago -ish. And we’re going to explore
how events at that time influenced our understanding
of both Malay culture and cuisine, as well as
Southeast Asian culture and cuisine as a whole.
But first, let’s talk coconuts. Coconuts. Well,
I guess for me, my first introduction to it would
have been the humble bounty bar. But, you know,
beyond that, though, as a fresh ingredient, I
think of it as, you know, probably Caribbean.
But then I also think, well, surely coconut milk
is used in a lot of Indian curries. So it’s used
across the world. Yeah, it’s one of those like
global foods because so many… coastal communities
around the world, no matter which continent you’re
from, has coconuts. It does hold particular significance
in a lot of Malaysian cultures’ cuisines. Okay,
yeah, yeah. Whether that’s Malay, Indian, and
even the Chinese communities in Malaysia use
coconuts to some degree. It’s quite versatile
as well, isn’t it? From the water and the flesh
and all of the rest of it. Well, yeah, exactly.
You’d even use the fronds for like… roofing
and stuff like that as well right like thatched
roofs or whatever yeah this plant is amazing
this fruit is amazing like you know the coconut
is a fruit you can eat the flesh of it you can
drink the water you can like um mash up the flesh
and extract the milk and the oils the fats yeah
yeah yeah so there’s so many different ways that
it’s used yeah coconuts are used a lot in particular
malay cuisine so rendang which is a i think it’s
a dry coconut curry yeah and it’s basically made
by you know making a spice paste as you would
so many malay curries adding coconut milk and
then boiling it down until it’s really really
dry there was this other ingredient when i’ve
been trying to make rendang called kerasik which
is where you basically take desiccated coconut
toast it almost to the point of blackening and
then you traditionally would take a mortar and
pestle and for hours would mash it and mash it
and mash it into this kind of like not quite
peanut butter but it’s this really thick Well,
all the oils, I guess, start getting released
from the coconut flesh and then it kind of becomes
like a runny peanut butter. Right, yeah. In that
context. Yeah, it’s quite pasty, almost like
fudgy or almost something. But when I added it
to the rendang when I was making it, I don’t
know if you know what I mean when I say that
when you’re making curry, it’s better to have
it the next day. Those flavours need to sit for
a bit and just kind of really… start to mature
or whatever in the pot but then when I add the
kerosene to it it almost adds this like instant
depth to it because I think you’ve charred it
but you’ve also released those oils and it’s
probably quite sweet as well with all the caramelization
that’s going on in the toasting and that’s just
like another kind of like coconut product that
I’ve added to dishes that has completely change
the complexity of the dish and it’s quite simple
it’s literally just desiccated coconut that you
have almost burnt and then mashed up into a page
yeah yeah it’s quite amazing um but then there’s
also desserts that use coconut so onde onde which
is sort of this like mochi like dessert but it’s
covered in desiccated coconut so it’s using lots
of savory dishes like curries like stews and
it’s using lots of sweet dishes Whether that’s
the desiccated coconut, but we also have like
coconut based jellies. Oh yeah. That we like
called kueh lepis. But even though it’s used
so ubiquitously in Malay cuisine, I think it’s
a little understated. Like last episode, we were
talking about durians and that’s got massive
brand awareness. Sure. And when people say durian,
they kind of immediately think of either Malaysia
or Southeast Asia in general. Yeah. But I think
when people think about coconuts, they don’t
necessarily think about Southeast Asia. And probably
for that reason you mentioned at the beginning,
that it’s everywhere in the world. But what many
people don’t realise is that Southeast Asia was
one of the original sites of coconut cultivation.
As in, is that where they came from? I don’t
want to say the words, that’s where they came
from. Mainly because… I don’t think there’s
been enough research of the first coconut. I
don’t know if they’ve done that. However, scientists
have analyzed coconuts around the world. And
in there was a paper release called Independent
Origins of Cultivated Coconut that tried to find
out where coconut was first cultivated. So not
originated as sort of a wild plant, but where
was it cultivated? um most and so they did um
dna analysis of like coconuts from around
the world okay a lot of coconuts it’s like uh
what was that and me for coconuts exactly
and what they found is that um coconuts really
originated in cultivation from two main sites
one of them was the southeast asia region so
what we mean by that is like malaysia indonesia
philippines those sorts of areas. And then the
other origin of cultivation was the Indian Ocean
area. So we’re thinking the coastal areas of
India, Sri Lanka, but also places like the Maldives.
Not a million miles away, though, really, from
Southeast Asia, given how buoyant the coconuts
are famously traveling across the sea, which
is probably how they’ve dispersed themselves.
Well, that’s almost like the myth of coconuts,
that a lot of people think that because coconuts
float, they… have independently traveled the
globe. Well, they’re sentient now. Yeah, they’re
sentient, yeah. But what the researchers of this
paper suggest is that coconuts from Southeast
Asia were carried to the Indian Ocean by seafarers
about ,years ago. And then those two sites,
the Southeast Asian coconuts and the Indian Ocean
coconuts, were eventually transported to the
rest of the world to the americas to africa um
by european traders oh so not under their own
steam no right okay i feel like there’s been
a lot of like analogies about in these coconuts
being quite self -determined seafarers up the
straits of malacca yeah on their way to Whatever.
The Coromandel Coast or something like that.
What’s that Tom Hanks movie? Cast Away. Yeah,
Cast Away. Oh, yeah. Wilson! Yeah, well, that
was a volleyball, was it not? Wilson was a volleyball.
Maybe Wilson had some friends. Maybe. That were
coconuts that became sentient. Right. Yeah, and
left Wilson on that island by himself. With Tom
Hanks. Right. Okay. So, given this… almost
botanical migration that has accompanied human
migration, I think we need to kind of like bolster
the status of coconuts and what that means to
the people of not just Malaysia, but of Southeast
Asia. It’s bolstering the status, though. I feel
like they have status, but they’re just underappreciated.
Yeah. Because they are ubiquitous, I think it’s
like they need to be celebrated more, I think
is what you’re saying. They’re underappreciated.
We care about appreciation. We care about appreciation.
Yeah, so we care about coconut appreciation on
this show. So let’s cast our minds back to about
a couple of thousand years ago. So by this stage,
the first peoples have already arrived, been
there for quite some time. I guess the ancestors
of Malay people have first survived and the ancestors
of all these other indigenous groups have been
there and settled for quite some time. They’ve
got communities there. But at this point in time,
there’s no such thing as countries. There’s no
Malaysia, Singapore, Brunei, Indonesia, Philippines,
whatever. There’s no such thing as borders. And
so the movement of people is pretty fluid. And
so… Because all these people, particularly
on the coastal areas, were seafarers, they were
going back and forth around the areas of Southeast
Asia and also potentially around the world too.
And so as a little reminder, Southeast Asia has
,islands. Exactly. Exactly ,not
an island more. So people at that time, they
were perhaps trading with… People of other
islands and other lands that were sharing culture,
sharing language, marrying each other, forging
bonds. So this is the beginning of perhaps our
recognizable culture of what we call Malay culture,
Indonesian culture, Filipino culture. A lot of
them have the same history. Right. And we can
see that in the food of these Southeast Asian
nations. Like if you think about Thailand, Malaysia.
Indonesia, we all have a form of coconut rice.
Okay. So for example, in Malaysia, we have nasi
lemak, which is like the national dish. And that
is coconut rice served with sambal, peanuts,
cucumber and fried fish. But we found that in
Indonesia as well. That’s in Indonesia as well.
And then in Thailand, I’m not sure if they have
nasi lemak, but they certainly have glutinous
rice cooked in coconut milk. And that becomes
a dessert to serve with mango. So all of these
cultures of Southeast Asia have coconut as the
core because we’ve got this thousands of year
old history of sharing culture through seafaring
traditions. The more you know. The more you know.
And so I think in today’s age, we sort of forget
that because we’ve got these defined countries
now. These countries are like… oh i’m malaysian
and i’m indonesian which is which is fair enough
um we sort of forget that they do have a shared
history they do have a shared culture and i think
it’s only now in recent years that we’re maybe
starting to recognize that that it’s shared that
it’s shared more openly recognize that and appreciate
that because we’re about appreciation now we
have to think about how do we actually go about
recognizing the shared history and culture how
do we Talk about it. What terms we use. Breaking
bread with your old neighbors. Breaking rice,
maybe. Breaking rice, yeah. Breaking coconuts
in today’s episode. How do we break coconuts
so that we acknowledge this past and also preserve
this shared culture as well? Because if people
aren’t talking about the shared culture, then
it’ll kind of be consigned to the history books.
I think so. Unifying, isn’t it? Well, it should
be unifying. It shouldn’t be divisive. Exactly.
So I wanted to introduce you to a new term that
can help us in better talking about this shared
past. And that term is Nusantara. In the context
of talking about the ancient past, Nusantara
refers to all the islands of Southeast Asia.
Most of them. Okay. Is it to the Philippines?
Philippines, Borneo, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia,
perhaps parts of New Guinea and parts of southern
Thailand as well. Okay. So collectively, some
people are starting to refer to these lands as
Nusantara. Okay. And the other terms that people
are starting to use, not all the time, is the
idea of Malay culture and Malay world. Not just
to refer to people of Malaysia. Okay. in a broader
understanding. Because remember that Malay culture
grew out of a time before borders. Right, okay.
That is an interesting concept without wanting
to jump too far ahead in time when you think
about, you know, even just an island of Java,
you’ve got Sundanese and you’ve got other kind
of like ethnic groups of people that… are more
clustered within regions, even on one island.
But as a Malay culture, because is it argued
that the Malay people perhaps came from various
Southeast Asian… I guess it’s what you’re talking
about. It’s all of the sea trade. It’s the back
and forth. It’s people moving around. And yeah,
it’s murky. Yeah, it’s really murky. I don’t
think Nusantara and Malay world are easy concepts
to digest. And we are also not experts. And we’re
not experts, but… There are people that are
experts and we’re going to talk to them now.
Thank God for academics. So we spoke to Kier
Jahari, who’s a prominent voice in discussions
about Nusantara and Malay culture. He’s the author
of a book called The Food of Singapore Malays,
Gastronomic Travels Through the Archipelago.
So this book is not just about the Malay people
of Singapore, but it’s the Malay people of the
entire Southeast Asian archipelago. perhaps
got it okay i spoke to him via zoom from
his home in singapore well you know i’m i’m kira
juhari um i have always been interested in food
because there’s so much more to food than what
we eat it’s who we are identity our history our
place in the in the region so there’s something
about food Simply put, Malay cuisine is food
that’s created, prepared, consumed according
to the distinctive cultural norms of the Malay
people, regardless of their geographical, national,
ethnic, or racial origins. It’s deeply rooted
in the region, and yet very cosmopolitan. You
know, there’s a book by Professor Tim Bernard
called Contesting Malayness, right? I mean, there’s
this, you know, you can go in so many directions.
But for the purpose of my book, and I wanted
to look at Malay not as an ethno -racial entity,
but a sort of fluid space, multicultural fluid
space. Let’s take a look at the word Roman. When
someone says, that’s very Roman, it could be
something Gaulish or Egyptian, it could be Greek.
and yet we knew it as something that’s very Roman.
So likewise, Malewal is really a maritime space
with endless shores and all this mixing, especially
in port cities. You’re bound to see this colourful
sort of foodscape. The foodscape of Nusantara
is of particular interest to Kia. And he explained
to me the many different cultural influences
and culinary features of Nusantara. Nusantara,
if you were to break it down from Sanskrit, that’s
Nusa, that’s island. Antara in between, so islands
in between. So that’s the archipelago. This is
a maritime world. You have the Austronesians
up north. There’s a Chinese civilization which
has always been trading with Nusantara, the Malay
world. And then to the west, we have the Indian
subcontinent. We have the arrival of people from
the Middle East and the Persian world. So yes,
the Malay world is the Nusantara. Imagine, you
know, that there is a little pond here and I…
you’re consuming something yummy. I look across,
I think, I want to eat what you’re eating. I
want to know what’s that in your hand. I think
people, there’s something about, you know, great
ideas travel. We interact and we want to experiment.
And there’s something you said about the nature
of the archipelago, hospitality, warmth, and
the love of trying something different, something
new. So, you know, the Malay world is sort of
such a mosaic. You know, there’s so many different
subgroups. So when we look within the big umbrella,
the Malay world umbrella, that’s the Malay…
some ethnic group called malay itself yep and
that’s of course they are the javanese and they
the the the bugis the minangkabau the bata the
archenies so and uh and we know we know also
that you know there’s all this regional food
so when you mentioned about you know orang asli
or orang daya to me i look at it as if it is
a regional is an original subject yep with his
own uh is with its own uh in a food but again
you know it’s when we talk about food it’s never
mutually exclusive through interaction there’s
bound to be commonalities the bump because the
interaction allows for cross -pollination you
know you when you look at the mediterranean the
Levantine or North Africa or Western Europe.
There is a distinctive culture about Mediterranean
region. Likewise, in the Malay world, there’s
multi -ethnicity within the Malay world. You
expect to see this sophistication, you know,
this mixing of, you know, of ingredients and
also techniques and symbolism. See, for my interpretation
of what kia was saying it’s like malay culture
and malay cuisine i guess by extension is an
umbrella term to describe lots of different either
subcultures regional cultures um that originated
in nusantara but i also liked his um comparison
to mediterranean because to me he certainly is
a european like would think of like as a mediterranean
culture is that you know island -y sort of a
thing whether it’s in Spain or whether it’s in
France or Greece or yeah can’t really speak about
Tunisia or anywhere on the North African side
but it’s um you think of a lifestyle you think
of specific cultural elements I think of yachts
but yeah but again you know it’s I guess that’s
a nice comparison because it’s about sea trade
and like you know seafaring people I guess yeah
um not just the super rich but like it’s um but
yeah I can contextualize what he’s saying about
the Malaysian stuff with an idea of the Roman
Empire and any Grecian empires or Egyptian empires
or Ottoman Empire. The sharing of ideas, it’s
not just food all the time, but it’s art and
design, it’s architecture, it’s religion probably.
And those empires spread across what we now call
multiple countries. Right, yeah, yeah. And then
obviously fractured off into their own cultures
and things like that. they still have got this
shared history. Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah. And it’s undeniable. You know,
you see all the ruins of all of these cultures
that have come before. So it’s pretty clear from
the chat with Kia that he does have this deep
passion for food and where it comes from. So
I wanted to know a little bit more about Kia
himself and what prompted him to write The Food
of Singapore Malays and what his plans for the
future are if we’re talking about acknowledging
Nusantara more and preserving that culture. You
know, my background is mathematics. And there’s
so much more to math than just numbers. I always
encourage my students to look at math history
to make math more meaningful. How do you know
what you know? There’s always that question in
math. How do you know what you know, right? So
likewise, if I were to take that and transfer
that to food, there’s so much to unpack. And
I felt there was… sense of how do i put it
social responsibility to need to want to document
and hence i embark on this project i think there’s
always been that foundation here that love for
food and then the sense of curiosity uh and and
you know i felt very strongly that if there’s
a book that i want to read but has not been written
i need somebody has to write it i need to write
it yeah The Food of Singapore Malays was published
in and has become an instant classic. And
Keir says that the topics around our shared history
have never been more important. Why is it important
today? You know, when we, when we, there was
a time when, you know, when we were, when we
just gained independence, whether, you know,
when we say we, Indonesia or Malaya gained independence,
we were sort of, you know, busy forging, you
know, our identity. But… Now, with ASEAN, with
movement of people, and people are rediscovering
a lot of things about themselves. So I think
all the more it’s necessary to understand who
we are. It’s interesting that when the book came
out, I thought I was looking forward to a review
from Business Times and South China Morning Post.
It didn’t happen. But the first review came out
of Germany from the University of Greifsfeld.
And this professor said, so we in the Baltic
should be looking at this book to have that kind
of conversation. Whether you’re Estonian, whether
you’re German or Russian or Polish, we share
the same water, the same climate. We understand
what to do with cabbage to get ready for the
winter. So, look, this book is talking about
that. It’s a trans -regional understanding to
look at food beyond, you know, modern -day states.
It should transcend geopolitical boundaries.
So, and I felt that when I gave my first, when
I did my launch in Jakarta, People were curious
about this book. With the subtitle, Gastronomic
Travel Through the Archipelago. And I said, this
is not a cookbook. It’s a love story. A love
story that’s lost and we are about to rediscover.
Now that the book is out, it’s like a baby. You
want to watch the baby grow. And I felt there
was need for more conversation. starting Dialogues
by Cure and the first project, the first big
project, that’s a seminar called Serumpun. Serumpun
simply means one cluster. You know, when you
describe, for example, your lemongrass or your
bamboo, we know it comes from one cluster, one
rumpun, but it has many branches. So it’s a lovely
metaphor for the Malay world. So yeah, I felt
very strongly there was a need for intergenerational
transmission. How do you go about doing it? So
having Serum Porn as a platform and to hear various
perspectives, that’s really wonderful. I think
the best way to keep traditions alive is to create
spaces where they can be shared, questioned.
reinterpreted and leave and not just look look
at um and you know one of the driving you know
intentions behind serum is to bring together
people from across the nusantara to share not
just knowledge but leave experiences uh and and
that’s the reason why i i felt very strongly
you know we need that platform to hear from scholars
to hear from practitioners to to hear from young
bloggers and anyone is interested in food to
come together because the culture survived not
because it’s preserved perfectly but because
it is love remembered and reimagined. One of
the speakers at the first stream point we had
in October spoke about food wars and it was so
hilarious because when you listen with an open
mind you realise it’s silly, it’s futile. The
notion of a national identity is a modern creation,
especially in the Nusantara. I mean, you could
be from Palembang and your mother -in -law is
from Kelantan. Kia stressed though that conferences
like Serumpun are just one aspect of acknowledging
and preserving culture. There are many other
ways that everyday people can play a part. You
know, like many good things, you know, we talk
about charity begins at home. Our food consumption,
our love for food, that has to be, you need to
have that conversation around your dining table.
It’s not just, how’s the food, Nobi? And Nobi
will reply, it’s great. So the next question
should be, why do you think it’s great? Can you
guess what’s in this dish? And does this remind
you of something else? Have you had prior experience,
something similar to this? So that conversation
needs to be had. So it begins, it starts from
home. You know, mom, you know, comes home from
the market and say, okay, look at this. This
is called, this is called cardamom. Yeah. You
want to try this? I said, mom, well, look at
the aroma. Start the conversation. I think it’s
a good starter. You know, it’s better to have,
to have something on the table and the conversation
about, you know, food than not to have. Meaning
that, you know, yes, people are busy, you know,
going through, you know. sort of daily grind.
But, you know, let’s say you go to the hawker
centre, you buy something from outside, from
the mama’s stall, you buy a packet of chicken
rice home. But still, you can still have that
conversation. But ideally, it would be great
to have people in the kitchen. That is something
that’s really, you know, we celebrate our…
a hawker culture but what’s lacking i think it’s
it’s home cook home cooking yeah whenever whenever
that’s possible um i i don’t mind making otah
otah let’s say in a pyrex if i cannot do my otah
otah you know the fronds of the coconut leaves
i might not have the luxury of time so i would
still do my otah otah at least it’s there yeah
So for those that don’t know, otok otok is a
fish dish. It’s fish that’s blended with spices
to make a paste, and then it’s wrapped in leaves
and grilled. But rather than undertaking that
extra effort of saucing and wrapping leaves,
Keir cooks his otok otok in a baking dish. I
asked Keir to expand on this idea of taking shortcuts
and adapting recipes. Is it okay to mess with
tradition like that? No, I think people shouldn’t
have that fear of doing something. Because at
the end of the day, you know, recipes are guidelines.
It guides you through the process. So if I’m
going to improvise, if I’m going to use ingredients
that’s available in London, you know, it calls
for instance, the recipe calls for aromatic galangal,
which I cannot get in London. Can I make do with
something else? Can I, you know, apply some kind
of adaptation? Can I localize it? So I think
you shouldn’t fear. It’s way better than losing,
you know, who you are. I mean, losing your cuisine,
losing your food. I want to see the survival
of that recipe. I want to see the survival of
that particular dish. It can take a different
form. I was in Sri Lanka and I saw a book on
the Rawant. Rawant is the mother of the Bokluwa
that we know. I am Bokluwa. as it is javanese
dish but there’s something was glaring in that
recipe for rawon the very thing that makes rawon
the baklava isn’t there because it’s not available
in sri lanka but it exists it survived in his
name at least i know there is rawon and it is
a reminder also a story of javanese that you
know that got exiled or made it made their way
to sri lanka So I’m big for that. I like to look
at it positively. Things might just get, you
know, it might not be in its quote -unquote sort
of a pure state, but I’m happy to make do. I’m
happy it is. So that was Kier Jahari, author
of The Food of Singapore Malaise. Philip, what
did you make of that conversation? I really enjoyed
what he was talking about with the German academic
having read the book and then going like oh we
do that in Europe as well because we know how
to prepare cabbage dishes to get us through winter
and all the rest of it. What I actually think
about with that is Jewish food because Jewish
culture is quite nomadic across Europe I think
in that sort of a way it’s always been on the
move but that food has been left in places or
been introduced to it. Yeah, and I think when
I first came across this concept of Nusantara
and the shared history of Southeast Asia, I think
I got unnecessarily confused by it, possibly
because there was all these new terms and new
ideas. And really, these ideas are quite common
around the world, whether it’s Baltic states,
Mediterranean states. There’s so many examples
around the world. where countries that we know
today actually have a shared culture that goes
back thousands of years. Right. I mean, yeah,
I mean, it is that kind of peasant food, isn’t
it? Like, well, that’s what we would call it
in Europe anyway. But, like, you know, people
are absolutely harkening back to this, like,
comfort food. These hearty, you know, provincial,
whatever the fuck you want to romanticise it
as. And yeah, I guess that’s the comparison that
should be easy for people to make without having
to… Keir was talking very specifically about
dishes that I’m aware that anybody outside of
Malaysia or Indonesia will not know what he was
talking about. But there are dishes that we have
here. You know, all these soups and stews. Fish
and chips. Yeah, even the way we make our bread.
Do you know what I mean? I think it’s so important
to acknowledge this. Because as Kia was mentioning,
our food culture is fading. People are cooking
less, dishes are at risk of not surviving. So
the more we can kind of come together. the better
I think. Yeah definitely and I think it’s I was
chatting with a friend recently who is from Guinea
-Bissau and he was saying that he wanted to cook
his mother’s food and all the rest of it but
it’s similar to what he was saying about the
availability of those ingredients that you cannot
like West African ingredients that you cannot
get in markets in Glasgow. But as you said, you’ve
got to cook it to keep it. Cook it to keep it.
Put that on a tote bag. Put that on a tote bag.
And I think, you know, even if you can’t get
it, if it’s close enough. How many tens of thousands
of recipes are there of raspberry bolognese?
Yeah. Right? And so, but people are just going
to put their mince in the pan. Do they have celery?
Probably not. But they’re going to maybe put
a carrot and onion through it. And certainly
like a can of tomatoes, which is not how you
should do it apparently. But it’s just that way.
You’re making that dish that… to you is spaghetti
bolognese because the version that I grew up
with, my parents cook it and they’re not Italian.
That is like, I mean, the way my nana makes it
is different. It’s just like, I want to taste
what my parents and my grandmother’s cooking
was. Even if it’s not right, even if it’s thoroughly
bastardised, there’s a memory there. It’s a love
of family almost that comes through recreating
those dishes that you grew up with. So people
need to stop being so precious and stop being
so absolutist about how a dish should be because…
Even in Malaysia, you go one village over and
they cook it differently, right? But they’d still
call it nasi goreng. Because I think culture
exists on a spectrum and our dishes exist on
a spectrum. And there are many ways to make something
authentic and traditional depending on lots of
different factors. Right. So I just want to mention
we’ve been using the word Nusantara to describe
ancient Southeast Asia. But Nusantara does mean
different things depending on which country you’re
in. So in Malaysia, Nusantara more likely means
the archipelago. In Indonesia, Nusantara can
either mean just the Indonesian archipelago or
it can mean the new capital city of Indonesia
that’s currently being built. On the island of
Borneo. Yeah, their Kalimantan side. Yeah. So
just be aware that when you read Nusantara on
the internet or in books, it can mean different
things. The other thing I’ll say is that not
everyone likes to use actually the word Nusantara.
Some people prefer to say maritime Southeast
Asia. to refer to those ancient lands and those
ancient people. That seems like a more PC way
of doing it. Yeah, and some people prefer to
say ASEAN. So that’s Association of Southeast
Asian Nations. But that reaches all the way up
to Vietnam, Cambodia. Is that still in that catch
-all? Oh, look, but potentially, you know, I’m
not an academic in it. And maybe as more research
and more conversations happen, maybe we’re expanding
our idea of what Nusantara actually is, what
maritime Southeast Asia actually is. um so the
other thing i’ll mention is that not everyone
also likes the word malay world or malay culture
as that catch -all umbrella right because malay
is so associated with malaysia now you can see
why um not everyone likes that right yeah you
need like a a neutral term yeah so as we move
to you know recognizing and appreciating our
shared history and culture i’m sure we’ll see
more conversations about what terms people prefer
to use. So, so far, we’ve mainly been talking
about cooking and dishes when talking about culture
and our food culture. But really, it’s not just
those two things. It’s also about, I guess, our
botanical heritage. Okay. And the plants that
we actually rely upon and how do people usually
get those plants was through foraging. Right.
And so that’s another aspect of our food culture
that we’re losing in at greater risk. Certainly
with urbanization, like we’re going to have less
market gardeners and things like that. Yeah.
I mean, like, who do you know that, who do you
know that can forage anywhere in the world? Yeah.
I mean, like, you know, allotments are becoming
a big thing over here, but like that, that is
such a kind of like pastime of the middle classes.
But that is, that’s a garden. Right. That’s gardening.
Cultivation. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So
we’re not, we can’t walk into. woodland and know
where to find whatever we’re looking for yeah
if you’re enjoying this episode you can follow
us on social media at satay okay we’ll be sharing
beautiful photos taken by philip of malaysia
its people and of course the food we’ll also
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you can see how the country has changed over
time you can also find links to give us a tip
or donation to show your appreciation for the
work we’re doing So head to our socials at SateOK
or visit our website, sateok .com. So to find
out more about foraging and our botanical heritage,
we spoke to Maria Stephanie, a food researcher
and writer based in Jogjakarta in Indonesia.
And because she’s from Indonesia, when she mentions
Nusantara in this interview, she’s referring
to the Indonesian archipelago and not the broader
maritime Southeast Asia. Well, my full name is
Maria Stephanie, but you can call me Steffi.
Most Indonesians, we don’t really go by the first
name basis. Sometimes our nickname comes from
our middle name. Anyway, it’s a long story, but
anyway, you can call me Steffi. And I’m… How
would I describe what I do for a living? Maybe
a food researcher and food fighter. So my main
focus, I guess, is food plants, especially like
local food plants. Not necessarily indigenous
or native species, but everything that grows
locally in Indonesia and that have been embraced
by the locals in Indonesia. as an everyday food
source. So for those of you who don’t know, Indonesia
is the second most biodiverse country in the
world. So we have, I think, more than ,
species of plants. And I’m not really sure how
much of it is edible. But yeah, we do have a
lot of edible plants. But they’re currently underutilized.
Because now our food options are very limited
to a handful of species, as you know, right?
But back in the days, back in the olden days,
we used to have a very varied diet with lots
of edible plants. But now the knowledge of these
plants are diminishing. Partly I think it’s because…
because we are now doing well in terms of you
know the economy and yeah we just more like politically
stable we’re not in our like survival mode like
back in the days like post -war post um world
war ii like like you said about you know britain
being poor after the uh after the second world
war we we also experienced that we were very
poor we had very limited food that like our predecessors
they they had to be creative with where they
get their food sources so they would go to the
forest they would like try to remember what their
ancestors ate like all the wild edibles or for
example like with the banana tree you can actually
eat the banana blossoms right we still do but
it’s It’s not a very common thing to eat anymore.
So those kind of things, that kind of knowledge,
that diminishing, we’re losing that. But I view
that kind of knowledge as, knowledge is wealth,
right? So when you’re losing a certain amount
of knowledge, you’re actually becoming poorer.
The number of forageable wild plants is vast,
and Steffi shared with me just a few. There are
certain types of weeds that you can easily find
on the side of the roads or growing near rice
paddies. There’s one called, in Indonesian it’s
called sirih kina or sirih air. I think it’s
a type of wild pepper. Oh, betel leaf. Betel
leaf, yeah. That one you can find easily. And
then there’s also pegagan. Pegagan is… Gotu
Kola is the Indian name for pegagan. Those would
be the two most common examples of plants that
you can forage easily in Jogja. You can eat them
raw, use them as a salad leaf. Or you can also
lightly blanch them and make like a… A traditional
Javanese salad with peanut sauce. Pecel. We call
it pecel. These forage foods can be used to make
many more dishes, and I asked Steffi on some
of her favourites. On the top of my mind, I would
say one of them is called terancam. So it’s a…
It’s a funny one because for people who are not
familiar with this dish… trancam means threatened
in indonesian but in japanese it means something
else it’s a name of this dish but for for people
who are not for indonesian people who are not
familiar with this dish they would be like you
know like why would i want to be threatened anyway
that’s another story but yeah why i like tranjam
in in particular is because it’s okay so it’s
basically a traditional salad japanese salad
made with Originally, it used to be made with
foraged greens but nowadays with farm produce
mostly but we still get like if we go to some
places they would still use forage produce right
so they’re mostly raw and then it’s dressed with
coconut dressing so shaved coconut with some
spices tossed together and also palm sugar so
it’s sweet and a bit spicy and a bit savory as
well from the coconut and from the salt and you
just mix everything together and it’s it creates
this most delicious most beautiful salad that
you can just eat it on its own or with a plate
of rice and you know some sides tempeh or tofu
that would be one of my top three plant -based
traditional dishes. For Steffi, preserving the
skill of foraging and regaining our understanding
of wild foods is more than just about cultural
and culinary preservation. It’s also about everyday
health. Health benefits, lower risk of cardiovascular
diseases, diabetes, so all of these, what do
you call them again? metabolic diseases, degenerative
diseases as well so yeah lower risks of these
kind of diseases and also you know the simple
joys of life of having to poop every day, every
morning like regular bowel movement you would
say yeah I was gonna say yeah it impacts your
mood so if you Don’t go this morning that you
feel crappy the whole day. Digestive benefits
aside, the botanical and foraging aspects of
cuisine and culture is a really tricky one to
keep alive. And that’s because unlike dishes
that are cooked, where recipes can be adapted,
you can’t really do that with forage produce.
Preserving this culture really depends on where
you live. If you live in an urban setting, an
urban area, highly… dense population with almost
no forest it’s not impossible it’s but it’s very
difficult for you to be able to forage your own
food yeah foods but if you live like in the villages
you can still do that but then again if you you
can still do that if you still have the knowledge
about the edible plants but if you have very
limited knowledge then well you still can forage
but then You’re just limiting yourself to this
small number of plants. But still the question
remains, where can I get these? Where can I forage
my food? Where can I forage my wild vegetables
from? So it’s still a question that we collectively
have to answer. While the act of foraging and
finding wild foods isn’t necessarily practical
for a lot of people, gaining that knowledge is
something that can be addressed, no matter where
you live. And that’s what Steffi is trying to
achieve with her book about the plants and foods
of Indonesia. It’s called Dari Bumi Nusantara
Ke Piring Kita. So in English, the English translation
would be from Nusantara soil to our plate. And
because like the book that I’ve just published
is actually targeted for the younger audience,
like maybe primary school students. So I’m hoping
that… this knowledge gets passed down to the
younger generation. Again, it wasn’t just culture
that motivated her to write the book. It was
about health too. I guess it’s partly sustenance
and also partly health concerns. Sustenance because
during the COVID times, we mainly had to stay
at home. I was lucky because I lived with my
parents during COVID, and they have a small garden
where they have these edible plants that are
quite rare nowadays. I can still buy vegetables
from the nearby vegetable vendor, but sometimes
I would get too lazy to go outside. hey, we have
this vegetable growing in our garden. Why don’t
we just use this? So it’s like during that time
that I realized that we could actually live on
this knowledge, you know. We could actually survive
on this knowledge. But yeah, so that is one,
the sustenance. And then health, because I’m
interested in gut health. Nowadays, we just don’t
eat. Researching the book required Steffi to
engage with older generations who had that knowledge
of the local environment. We talked about the
process of approaching this generation. And it
was really interesting to hear about the dynamic
between older and younger generations. They’re
actually quite happy to share because they don’t
get asked these questions nowadays. So you can
imagine that these are people who are well over
their s. Those who survived and lived through
the post -war era. The thing is, right, they
have this assumption that the younger generation
just don’t really, are not really interested
in this type of knowledge anymore. But when you
ask the younger generation, they would say that,
oh, you know, those old people just don’t want
to share anything with us anymore. So there’s
this, also there’s this assumption barrier between
these two generations now. And also, I think
because most Indonesians, how we were brought
up, we were not accustomed to asking questions.
If you don’t know anything, you just keep quiet.
In Western countries, if you don’t know something,
you ask, right? You ask because you want to know,
right? So, yeah, like having to introduce this
method of research. It’s also something new,
I guess. But I find that with a lot of people
who I asked about these things, they’re very
open to sharing their knowledge. It’s just that
we have to ask them. We have to ask these questions.
We have to be brave enough to ask. There’s another
layer to this, though. And Steffi did encounter
some people that didn’t really want to talk or
share their knowledge. And the reason was quite
unexpected. Oh, and there’s also sometimes you
do get a level of hesitancy from some people,
especially in Jawa because we have this concept,
I don’t know how you can translate it into English,
gengsi. Apa gengsi? Pride, yeah. When we want
to find out about these like forage produce,
The older population, the older generation would
think of these forage produce as poor people’s
food. Yeah, like wartime food. So many of them
associate these produce with the tough times,
post -war tough times. So it’s like an unpleasant
memory that they don’t want to relive. I don’t
think it’s shame. I don’t think it’s shame. It’s
just that… It’s just that they don’t want to
be reminded that they were once poor and suffering.
It could be trauma. It could be something traumatic,
but at the same time, it could be something nostalgic
as well. For example, my dad, he grew up very
poor, but he would, when we eat out, go to this
restaurant where they serve maybe like fish,
grilled fish, right? And then we just start eating,
and then he would start telling stories about
his childhood. where when he was very poor, if
he wanted to eat fish, he would go to the nearest
river and bring his fishing rod. And then he
just went fishing and then he caught some and
bring back home. And then we would grill the
fish and eat the entirety of the fish, except
for the bones, of course. If I would ask my dad,
purposely to get this kind of stories maybe he
he would feel a bit hesitant but you know like
you have to have this a certain atmosphere for
him to kind of yeah to be able to get these stories
out without him having to remember the you know
bad memories traumatic memories yeah yeah solution
to bridging the generational gap and bridging
the knowledge gap is that to create spaces where
you incidentally talk about these things rather
than a forum a formal question and answer forum
do you think there are like community spaces
that people can build that enable just the free
flow of information actually I’d never thought
of that but that’s a good idea actually that
is a very good idea i never thought of that you
know like having a dedicated space like a safe
space for us to be able to share stories and
also i think uh shifting the narrative a bit
could help as well like uh you tried to put these
like food sources in a very positive light like
for example if i talk about gut health if i talk
about health in general and then i tell people
that hey do you know that this is The challenges
inspiring the next generation are getting harder
though, year on year, and there are a lot of
factors to consider. We’re losing it at a rapid
pace, a very quick pace. Yeah, and that’s a shame.
Well, one, the older generations are slowly dying
out. Also, with the current food trends… especially
people who live in bigger cities they’re getting
more and more detached from traditional foods
like more and more younger generations are more
are getting more familiar with like Korean food
like modern Korean food of course Korean street
food Japanese street food but like they don’t
know what Steffi though reiterated the same points
that Kia made, that in order for traditions to
be preserved and practiced, we need to loosen
up and modernize. people don’t consume the same
foods as people back in the olden days and it’s
fine like you can you can you’re allowed to be
creative with food uh but but then there there
there’s also like a group of people who who want
to cling to the past and say that you can only
eat this when it’s cooked like that like that
you know like they’re very strict about tradition
and yeah well traditionality but i think the
the solution is to be creative that was maria
stephanie and her book is available through her
publisher guru bumi and it can also be bought
online on tokopedia but it is in indonesian and
she doesn’t currently have an english version
or any other languages it is a beautiful book
so the illustrations threader are absolutely
incredible and i almost i I don’t know if a version
of that exists in the UK for what can be forged
in the UK. Oh, yeah, that’d be interesting. What
did you make of her conversation? I thought it
was really interesting. I think what also stuck
out for me, which was similar to Ronnie in our
previous episode, talking about ancestors being
reluctant to kind of share on that knowledge
is just such an interesting thing about trying
to just kind of present themselves in a new image
and we’re not going to look back to the past
or whatever it is, kind of like for fear of being
nostalgic almost. But then as she says, you know,
you get them down at the dinner table to be eating
that particular fish or whatever. And then he
just wants to actually start sharing all of these
things. I thought that was really interesting.
And yeah, I think, yeah, it’s funny. This could
be kind of starting to be this recurrence of
like hesitancy about sharing the past and sharing
the old practices and things. I don’t think I
really thought about in terms of trauma, though.
And she was sort of talking about the reluctance
because they didn’t want to be reminded of a
really bad time. I remember talking to my mum
about her growing up in Malaysia. And whenever
she’d talk about it, she’d really just be like,
oh, we were so poor. Really, really poor. But
she wouldn’t really… Expand on it. Yeah, yeah.
And it was really through talking to my dad that
he was like, yeah, when we were like dating,
she would have just like, her family would have
one small piece of meat or fish and she would
offer it to me to share. But I was like, no.
You don’t have enough food for your own family.
I can’t possibly share with you. And so I can
now start to understand that. Right. Yeah, yeah.
And it’s also the same actually with my dad who
didn’t, you know, grow up as poor as my mum.
But he would also really only share memories
in a contextual setting. So if I was in Australia
asking about, you know, what was it like growing
up in Malaysia? He’d give me a one word answer.
Right. But if I’m actually in Malaysia with him
and we’re walking around Malacca where he grew
up, then he would offer those stories so quickly
because we’re there. And the stimulus around
them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it’s interesting that,
you know, in order to preserve our culture. to
acknowledge our shared culture and history, we
need to find maybe the right space to do that.
It’s interesting though, she was touching on
at the end about how globalization is also changing
how we engage with our own culture. So sometimes
when I think about modernity, I sort of think
about, oh, everyone’s living in cities now, we
aren’t cooking as much, and therefore culture
is dying. But she was also saying that Indonesians
are now getting really involved with Korean food
and other cultures. And we’re at this stage where
things are becoming more multicultural, which
is beautiful. We can share cultures with other
people, which is, again, so beautiful. But what’s
happening for some people is that they’re engaging
with other people’s cultures at the expense of
their own. Right. So that happens to me. So I’m
Chinese -Malaysian. My heritage, that’s where
it is. And I sometimes expand that to being,
oh, I love all aspects of Chinese culture to
the point where I’m like, I love Sichuan food,
right? Right. I want to cook it. I want to eat
it all the time. Even though that’s Chinese,
that’s actually nothing to do with my culture,
which is more rooted in Cantonese, Hokkien, and
the Malaysian diaspora as well. So I’m almost
sacrificing learning about my own family’s history
at the expense of Sichuan food. Well, it’s your
personal preference, I guess, isn’t it? Yeah,
yeah. You know, particularly me, I’m quite ignorant
on even Scottish food, and I find myself, and
I think most, certainly Scots and probably Brits
as an extension, are far more adventurous in
what they cook at home. when they cook at home
or what they reheat in the microwave because
it will probably be curry or you know thai green
curry or something like that whatever other kind
of like dishes can be easily reheated but um
and you’re saying that at the expense of their
own right scottish traditions yeah because nobody’s
making colton skink yeah which is delicious oh
it’s a hearty meal yeah i’m looking out the window
just now and it’s cold and grainy and rainy windy
and uh i think actually a big you know fish chowder
would be great So if we go back to our food of
the episode, which is coconuts, a wonderful reminder
of the shared history and the seafaring traditions
of the peoples of Southeast Asia, however you
want to refer to them. Whichever terms you use,
I think it’s important to recognize that as far
back as our ancient texts and our genealogy can
take us, we’ve had… Shared movement of people,
shared culture, shared dialogue. And we should
appreciate that more. I think you’re right. So
in the next episode, we’re going to continue
our historical journey through Malaysia. And
we’re going to look at the emergence of defined
territories and empires. We’re going to take
a look at Blachan and the forgotten ancient empires.
As long as we don’t have to smoke out the kitchen
in order to do this episode, I’ll be more than
happy to talk about it. And we will explain that
story in full. with you next time. So see you
next time for Saté. Okay.