E2 – Durian and the Arrival of the First Peoples

Hosted by Dr Noby Leong and Philip Gibson
Produced by Dr Noby Leong and Philip Gibson
Sound Design by Jack Barr

Satay? Okay! is produced by Kopi Productions Limited and supported by the Golden Chopsticks Scholarship, by the Oxford Cultural Collective Trust

Native Discovery – https://discovernative.org/
Persatuan Kebudayaan Dan Kesenian Orang Asal Perak – https://orangasalperak.org/
Gerimis – https://www.gerimisart.com/
Pagan Races of Malaysia, 1906, Skeat and Blagden

Please note that this transcript may contain errors and typos

Welcome to Satay. Okay. A podcast about the foods
that have shaped Malaysia. I’m Dr. Nobby Leong,
scientist, food writer and broadcaster. And I’m
Philip Gibson, photographer and sensory evaluator.
And in this series, we take a look at the history,
cultures and cuisines of Malaysia. We’re going
to take you back tens of thousands of years to
the ancient lands of Southeast Asia. all the
way through to the creation of a modern day nation.
In this episode, we’ll look at durian and the
arrival of the first peoples. So prepare those
aroma adjectives and get ready for satay. Okay.
So in the last episode, we talked about satay
and the myth of Malaysian cuisine, and we talked
about how satay is a great starting point to
delve deeper into the history and culture of
food, and that Malaysia doesn’t have just one
cuisine, but it has many cuisines influenced
by lots of different cultures. And today we’re
going to look at one of those cultures, which
is the indigenous cultures of Malaysia. But before
we do that, let’s look at our food symbol of
the day, the food that connects us with the past
and the culture, and that… is durian the king
of fruits the king of fruits how do you feel
about durian be honest do you like it i’m getting
into it um i’m getting into it i think obviously
when i’m there i don’t know that i trust the
quality of the fruit that makes its way over
to here it’s traveled a long way if you can find
it if you can find it and also it is quite prohibitively
expensive to spend a lot of money on something
that i would not say i have got into loving it
yet um and so therefore it would have to be very
nice very fresh durian i think for me to enjoy
it and so therefore there’s a lot going wrong
indeed so if you don’t know what durian is durian
is a fruit it’s massive it’s like soccer ball
size maybe bigger it’s covered in spikes and
then the inside once you crack it open has this
like soft pulp that you eat yeah they kind of
look like enormous like orange segments or something
like that in the way that they’re that shape
like a kind of crescent moon almost like yeah
they’re like a crescent moon shade they’re also
like yellowy and orangey in color huge seed in
the inside of it yeah and it’s like it’s really
hard to describe the flavor yeah i will say once
you get past the smell of this um i’m aware that
the more i describe this the less likely i am
to convince people that it’s actually nice okay
so why don’t we why don’t we try and do an objective
description of durian so the first thing people
would say talk about is the smell because that’s
what uh the first sense that is engaged when
you encounter a durian sure and it does have
i mean like smells are uh subjective there’s
no such thing as an objectively bad or an objectively
good smell oh i would disagree objectively bad
smells nobody likes the smell of a rotten egg
Some cultures, I think, have sulfurous eggs that
are a delicacy, I’m sure. I don’t think hydrogen
sulfide’s the one, but yeah, anyway. Anyway,
so yeah, durian, the smell of it, people do liken
it to rotten eggs because it is a bit sulfurous.
I personally don’t mind the smell. I just think
it smells like durian to me. I wouldn’t say that
durian is particularly farty in its smell. i
don’t even know what it is i think what people
say like rotten meat and stuff like that but
again i don’t know how often i’m actively smelling
rotten meat because i don’t tend to let it go
bad in my fridge so yeah yeah people use really
visceral language i think to describe the smell
i think Some people get a bit too like Anthony
Bourdain inspired and try and go for the most
outrageous adjectives that they could possibly
use to describe the durian smell. Rotting meat,
rotten eggs. Shock value. Yeah, exactly. So the
smell is only one part of the flavor of durian.
When you actually eat it though, it is probably
the most complex single food, single ingredient,
single fruit that I’ve ever tasted. I think so.
Unadulterated. Like, you know, if something’s
fermented like cheese, you know, you can get
really a lot of strong cheeses. Right. That’s
had a process attached to it. Whereas durian
hasn’t been processed in any way by, you know,
human intervention. Sure. So I think it’s the
most complex thing I’ve ever had. How would you
describe the taste? The taste of it? I think
there is a definite custardiness to it. It’s
definitely quite perfumey and like… underneath
the kind of like pungent kind of overtone that
can be there there is actually a sweetness and
quite a floral sort of i think flavor going on
there yeah but it is vanilla custard in not just
um taste but also the texture yeah it’s very
creamy it melts in your mouth it’s slightly fibrous
but it’s not not like a pineapple or anything
like that it’s smoother i think you described
it almost as having the texture of avocado yeah
i think that’s probably whatever that’s probably
the most similar fruit and texture that people
would be familiar with. So where most fruits
that people get in a Western supermarket, like
apples, oranges, strawberries, they are all moist,
sweet, and tangy, but durian is not any of those
things. It’s not juicy, it’s creamy. It is sweet,
but it is also savory in its flavor. So when
people try durian for the first time, I think
that’s thrown off by the texture as much as the
flavour because it’s not what a typical Western
fruit tastes like. Yeah, some people have described
it as having a kind of cheesiness about it, like
a, I don’t know, like a light, like a light soft,
a light soft cheese or something like that, you
would say. Yeah, yeah. I guess kind of fruity,
but I can’t even think of what fruit. There’s
no other fruit that really compares. But what
I think, you know, you should get from what you’re
saying is that for people that are coming to
do it for the first time, it is divisive. But
for Malaysians, it is not divisive like at all.
But like, I think when I was a kid introduced
to it, I think my parents almost turned me against
it immediately. Because the first thing that
any Malaysian will tell you about durian is like,
oh, it stinks. It smells bad. And what they want
is like a reaction from you. But when you’re
like five, you’re just like, okay, well, I’m
going to hate this. So you don’t even bother
to try it. Yeah, exactly. So if you were about
to go to Malaysia and you were sort of researching
durian, you’d probably almost definitely come
across an article where someone’s called it the
world’s most controversial fruit or something
like that. And that’s when you start getting
the Anthony Bourdains and the food writers that
are… trying to embellish for reaction in the
same way that my parents were embellishing for
a reaction but i don’t think it’s a recent phenomenon
it seems as though people have been writing about
ever since colonial days like when people were
trying the first first origins um i came across
an article in the new straits times uh from
and uh as much as there was various instructions
about How to serve durian. So this had someone
at a party or something? Yeah, this is, I think,
the journalist of the article, perhaps, who had
gone to a dinner party at the house of, in their
words, a wealthy Chinese at Penang when they
were served durian ice cream. And in the most
kind of flowery English, my reserves of politeness
have never undergone a greater strain. Which
I think… It’s quite interesting. But the article
then goes on to say that, you know, to say that
it’s like, you know, even revered by the animals
of the jungle or whatever in Southeast Asia.
The article then summarizes itself with. I will
leave it at that, only remarking that the tiger’s
delight is the Londoner’s poison. So not all
sort of colonizers or British people that tried
it back in the day were so vocal in their dislike
of it. And some people actually enjoyed it. So
this is a quote from Alfred Wallace Russell,
the famous naturalist who visited Borneo. And
he said, in fact, to eat durians is a new sensation.
worth a voyage to the east to experience so perhaps
this is where this whole idea of it’s controversial
came about you’ve got two very differing opinions
but i think like when people say it’s controversial
they really that’s really through a western viewpoint
because in malaysia it’s very much not a controversial
food at all and I think that the vast majority
of Malaysians adore durian as a fruit. They think
it is like the bee’s knees. It is the best thing
that you could possibly eat. I think there’s
a greater love of durian in Malaysia than there
is of spicy food. I think there are more people
in Malaysia that don’t like spicy food than people
that don’t like durian. I would say it’s not
just even limited to Malaysia. I think it’s also,
you know, that extends across all of Southeast
Asia. I mean, as much as I gripe about the controversy
around it, quote unquote, and the use of that
terminology, the industry has definitely benefited
from this hyped up, trending, controversial nature
of durian. Because the industry is so massive,
exported to China in large numbers, and every
year the exports are growing. And then when you
go to Malaysia, it’s crazy durian fever. You’ve
got like… durian statues giant durian signs
you can do durian buffets sort of like an all
you can eat two hour durian extravaganza to try
lots of different um types of durian you can
do durian homestays um it’s like what was the
old mother hubbard do you do you live inside
the durian yes maybe maybe like that um so the
industry around doing is is massive and i don’t
think i can think of another fruit around the
world that is as venerated as durian and also
so commercially exploited as durian yeah i was
just reading that um china has imported something
like and a half billion kilos of durian in
which is a increase on the previous year
so yeah big markets and uh thailand vietnam and
malaysia are being major exporters of that so
you know big business very big business So with
all these strange smells, if you like, and these
really complex aromas, it kind of does make you
wonder how durian came to be. Well, it’s certainly
me. So, you know, I’m a scientist and I love
uncovering the scientific history of an ingredient
sometimes. And so I’m always sort of like fascinated
by the evolution of durian. and typically when
we think about the evolution of a fruiting plant
you’re thinking about you know survival and how
has this fruit evolved to survive in the jungles
of malaysia imagine we’re in the jungle right
it’s dense yeah It’s kind of dark, very shaded
area. You’re competing as a durian tree with
so many other species. And your goal is to make
seeds and have that seed literally be spread.
That is the case for any plant. They want to
reproduce and they want to do so by spreading
their seed as far as possible. And when you look
at the fruit itself, it’s quite inhospitable
given that it is a football -sized spiky ball.
with the seeds buried behind this huge thick
shell and then this rancid flesh. Yeah. Not rancid.
So, yes. So the theory is that the durian evolved
this gigantic, thorny, smelly fruit in order
to attract what we’d call a disperser. Some sort
of animal to be attracted to the fruit, take
the seed and then drop it off somewhere else.
And so what happens to durian, the fruit, as
it’s growing, it’s got these giant spikes. as
it’s hanging on the tree, and that wards off
animals from touching it because the fruit’s
not ready yet. When it is ripe, that durian will
fall from the tree, drop on the ground, and because
it’s so heavy, it’ll split open. Okay. And if
you’re trying to attract animals, how are you
going to attract them? With smell. Okay. And
animals aren’t deterred by the smell of durian.
They kind of find it quite nice. And so there’s
a few animals that will then be attracted to
it, eat it, and then carry that seed so some
of them are elephants and rhinos they will like
eat it they’ll eat the seed whole but the seed
won’t be digested in the stomach one day later
when they’re far away from the plant they’ll
it out the seed’s still intact and what’s around
the seed is poo aka fertilizer so that’s one
way very ripe durian fertilizer exactly and the
other way is um an animal like a macaque who’ll
be attracted to it they’ll take the pulp and
the seed then they’ll cover the scurry away into
another tree or something, eat it, eat the pulp
and then throw away the seed. Got it. It sort
of makes me realize how intrinsic durian is to
Southeast Asia, to the land, to the plants around
it, to the animals and also to its people. So
durian has held a lot of significance to the
cultures of Southeast Asia for a long, long time.
So in Malaysia, in the southern part of the Malay
Peninsula, Durian’s associated with what you’d
call like Malaysian Bigfoot, orang mawas. It’s
supposed to sort of live in the jungles around
Johor and it’s supposed to eat the durian. So,
you know, there’s all these stories associated
with durian. In the Philippines, it’s associated
with this story of a king and a hermit. So the
story in the Philippines is that a king fell
in love with this woman, went to the hermit to
get some help to woo the woman. The hermit gave
the king a fruit that was smooth and sweet. And
the king used that to woo the woman to get married.
But the king didn’t invite the hermit. The hermit
pissed off by this whole situation and cursed
the fruit to become thorny and smelly. which
is the creation myth for the durian. I see, okay.
Then in Borobudur, which is a temple in Java,
the island in Indonesia, there’s like a rock
carving of durian. And so I think that temple
goes back a thousand years at least. So you have
all these cultures throughout Southeast Asia
that have a lot of like deep cultural stories
connected just with this one fruit. So it becomes
this beautiful link. to the past for the peoples
of southeast asia yeah the ancient past the ancient
people and so for me durian then is this culinary
connection for the ancient land and the first
peoples so kind of let’s imagine malaysia and
the land but tens of thousands of years ago so
this was before there were national borders so
there’s no such thing as malaysia indonesia singapore
Anything like that. So we’ve just got the lands
around. And we’re trying to kind of retrace when
the first people might have actually migrated
to that land. There is evidence of stone tools
about ,years ago in Malaysia, which is
amazing. But people, I think, are debating whether
or not that means it was actually settled by
people and people were actually living there.
Fun fact, Philip. ,years ago, the coastal
area around Malaysia… That sea level was
meters lower than it is today. Oh, okay. I mean,
I guess we’re kind of talking about the SHU,
aren’t we? Yeah. So what these archaeologists
are saying is that if there is evidence of human
settlement, it’s in the sea now. So it makes
it difficult to kind of recreate. Yeah. Either
way, we’ve got a situation where tens of thousands
of years ago, the first people migrate from the
north somewhere, Austronesian speaking. So like
maybe China. via Taiwan, via Borneo, and then
spreading out from Borneo to the rest of the
Malay archipelago and the Indonesian archipelago.
And so the indigenous people of Malaysia, that’s
their ancestors. Right, yeah, yeah. And so when
we say indigenous people, we do mean Malay. They
are indigenous. But there is also a non -Malay
indigenous population. So yeah, in the last episode,
we did a bit of a breakdown on the cultural groups
that make up Malaysia, talking about the Malay,
the Chinese and the Indian groups as the big
three. But we also talked about there being about
% of the population as being indigenous. So
what is that breakdown? There’s two really broad
categories of indigenous people. There’s the
indigenous people of the Malay Peninsula, which
are called the Orang Asli, and the indigenous
peoples of the Borneo side of Malaysia. We’re
not going to talk about the Borneo side of Malaysia
in this episode. We’ll kind of look at that at
future episodes, just because the cultures are
very different. Just as an aside, if you are
starting to like, if you’re doing any independent
research, or if you’re looking into this any
further, you might come across the word Bumi
Putra. And Bumi Putra refers to both Malay and
Orang Asli and indigenous Borneo people in sort
of one category. But just note that that’s not
really a cultural term. It’s more of a political
administrative term. Which translates to what?
Son of the land? Sons of the soil. People of
the soil. So that’s just an aside. So I won’t
lie, Philip. Before I started this project, and
certainly growing up in a household with two
Malaysian parents, I knew absolutely nothing
about orang asli people. Nothing. I mean, I certainly
hadn’t heard of it. No, I just would have been
in that ignorant camp of just assuming that…
people from malaysia were malays um yeah before
i even knew about the chinese and indian populations
to exist there because i don’t know anything
about it because you don’t know anything about
it we thought we’d speak to someone who does
know something about it i think that’s a good
idea so we went to kuala lumpur and we spoke
to emily wong from native discovery So Native
Discovery, they’re kind of an organization that
works alongside Orang Asli communities. They
run tours together to kind of bridge the gap.
And they also do advocacy work. Philip and I
did a tour with them just outside Kuala Lumpur,
which was an amazing experience. But if you’re
like us and you hadn’t heard of Orang Asli, you’re
definitely not alone. I didn’t even know they
existed until years ago. Sure. My name is
Emily Wong. I’m a program manager here at Native
Discovery and I work with Indigenous communities
here in Peninsular Malaysia. So Native is a social
enterprise and we are a small team. There’s only
one, two, three, four, four of us as full -time
employees at this point in time. Lovely. And
when you say Indigenous communities, who are
we talking about? We’re talking about the Orang
Asli specifically for… you know like peninsular
malaysia um in sabah sarawak they are known as
the orang asal um there are sub -tribes of
orang asli and we work with um i want to say
at least five different sub -tribes now so the
community that you visited um they are of the
termoan sub -tribe so they’re like proto -malay
so closest in resemblance in terms of like language
culture and even facial features to the malays
and then you’ve got um the semai and tumiars
who are a little bit up north and so we’ve worked
with those communities as well and and so how
diverse are the different orang asli communities
across the peninsula are they are they similar
in language or culture or are they quite different
from each other uh i would say they are fairly
distinct when it comes to a language especially
so it’s easy for me to understand the one because
it’s very similar to the malay language but i
am at a complete loss when it comes to the termiers
for example um the language is very different
um it sounds really foreign to my ears um and
so language wise i think there’s that difference
but what really we see is a key theme in in various
orang asli groups that we work with is is really
that reverence and that connection to the land
and i believe that this is similar for you know
like indigenous peoples in other parts of the
world so how connected they are to the land and
there’s this reverence towards the environment
and some of the stories and that they share are
actually fairly similar so for example the cultural
celebrations that they have so for us Chinese
we like the big one would be Chinese new year
and for them it’s hari nenek moyang and that
is ancestor day and it’s always at um the beginning
of the year and everybody celebrates it a little
bit differently so in surrender the way they
do it is they have it themed so every year there’s
a team in it was a cosplay themed new year
celebration so you had like dragon ball folks
you’ve got pokemons you’ve got spider -mans all
across the community so that was quite fun and
then this year it was bollywood so everybody
were wearing saris so different communities celebrate
it differently but there are the core values
of of these key anchoring cultural activities
are ultimately the same. So reverence for nature,
reverence for their ancestors. And I think this
really ties back into like their animistic roots,
for example. What is the sort of status of Orang
Asli communities in cultures today? I mean, how
much of the Malaysian population do they make
up? Is the culture thriving? Is it declining?
Can you give us a sense of their status? Yeah,
I would say that it’s definitely not as appreciated
as it ought to be. But there is a growing sense
of awareness of the importance and the uniqueness
of orang asli culture amongst Malaysians. So
I’m a millennial. I would say it’s growing among
millennials and especially Gen Zers. But I’m
not quite sure about… people my parents age
for example like but I do know amongst our social
circles and in fact a lot of social groups that
advocate for the orang asli or work with the
orang asli are of this age group right so the
general sense I would think is there’s a growing
as we become more socially aware and more understanding
of the importance of culture and social cohesion
there’s a growing desire amongst the Malaysian
public, I’d like to believe, of the importance
of and uniqueness of Orang Asli culture. So historically,
you mentioned like millennials are kind of aware
and appreciating Orang Asli, but historically,
maybe that wasn’t the case. Do you have a sense
of why that might be? So at Native, we think
that a lot of this is the public narrative around
the orang asli. How are the orang asli portrayed
in media, for example, or how are they portrayed
in our history books? How do our parents talk
to us about the orang asli? So as with many things
in life, there’s a lot of stereotypes, biases,
perspectives that comes into play. often misconstrued
public narrative that gives people, I don’t know,
like a presupposed view of how the orang asli
is like. And then we see this cultural disparity.
And so at Native, what we really believe in is
this whole concept of cultural literacy, right?
We really think that to change this public narrative,
people need to understand and appreciate. the
people group as a whole, to understand their
culture as a whole. And the only way, not the
only way, one of the easiest ways for us to do
that was through tourism activities. Come, meet
the people, eat their food, hear them talk. And
if we get our guests to a point where they start
challenging the perceptions, like the preconceived
notions that they have about the orang asli,
that’s when we think. that that tour has achieved
its desired outcome. Initiatives to bridge the
gap also serve to address numerous other issues
that Orang Asli communities face. Land rights
is always something that is very, it’s a dangerous
line to toe in a country like Malaysia, but it
is a reality. Land rights has always been an
issue, access to opportunities that perhaps better
education opportunities better work opportunities
has been an issue as well but i don’t you know
like we we try to we do believe that or that
the spotlight has always been on the challenges
that the orang asli face and perhaps it might
be um a little bit more beneficial for us as
a society right to really start looking at instead
of the what challenges they face that tension
between okay i know that they face these challenges
um they have these issues but then there’s also
so much strength and beauty to be celebrated
and how can we um in the process of appreciating
this strength and value that the orang has we
have been really raising that value that we can
somewhat um reach that gap and and close that
gap yeah so we When we talk about the orang asli,
a lot of times we are very intentional in positioning
them, in highlighting the value that the orang
asli can bring to the table, especially when
it comes to nation building. So there are numerous
complex issues being raised here. And while tourism
and cultural sharing is important, there are
many other initiatives underway. You know, we
are really convicted by the idea that allyship
is the way forward in meaningfully. to meaningfully
include the orang asli in mainstream society
and economy. Yeah, so we started as a tourism
organization where we offer tours, experiential
learning experiences for schools. And eventually
we realized that we are positioned well to help
reach this, to help garner. the for the orang
asli within non -indigenous communities through
the idea of advocating for allyship so what does
allyship with the orang asli look like for example
for a chef like yourself what does allyship look
like with the orang asli for a research university
like monash for example or nottingham that desires
to do more work with the orang asli so how does
that look like for different profiles in different
sectors um it’s something that we are super keen
to explore because we believe that everybody
has a role to play right and the whole idea again
is to be able to perpetuate this idea of allyship
so that we can support the orang asli not so
much in helping them or teaching them or telling
them what to do but support them in their fight
for a better future as determined by their people
and not by us so just because a future a certain
version of the future looks good to me doesn’t
mean that it is good for the orang asli right
so what do they want and how can we um collectively
share our resources and work work towards that
so how can we achieve that that shirt prosperous
future together that we can truly call it a Malaysian
future and not the Malaysian Chinese future not
the Malaysian Malay future but a Malaysian future
can we get to that point and if the desire is
to get to that point really we do believe that
you know like all Malaysians should be involved
and the orang asli are Malaysians and so how
do we how do we get there We work a lot with
universities, for example, where a university
might come up and say, hey, I want to do a sociology
research PhD project on the orang asli. Can you
help us with it? A lot of times what happens
with these research papers is that it gets done.
it gets shelved and it sits on the shelf for
god knows how many years right does it benefit
the orang asli is it something that would be
of use to the orang asli or is it something that
we’re just using to fulfill a journal kpi or
increase our impact index for example so um we
see this as an opportunity to to really as force
for good um but how can we help the how can we
bridge again it’s all about like facilitating
those relationships right how can we facilitate
the relationship between the orang asli that
we work with and the universities for example
in a way that benefits both parties and in in
a way that once again exemplifies that idea of
allyship so one of the things that we’re super
intentional about is okay Can you adhere to certain
principles when working with the orang asli?
Make sure they’re equitably represented, equitably
compensated for their time, for example, or their
opinions, their traditional knowledge is being…
Traditional knowledge is not taken as just an
ancient source of wisdom, but it’s really taken
as… a source of alternative knowledge um that
is equally valuable and equally valid can we
um there’s this concept called twice seeing right
how do we view problems with one side you know
looking at looking at things through the lens
of modern conventional knowledge and looking
through the other lens with traditional knowledge
and then you know really just bringing these
two knowledge systems together to solve pressing
issues for an international tourist visiting
malaysia what do you think allyship looks like
it in that way because you know the tourists
don’t right maybe they want to be an ally what
what do you think that would look like right
so i think that can look many different ways
uh for one it would definitely be to choose an
organization that you know works ethically with
with the orang asli so make sure that they’re
not again properly compensated for their time
um that they’re not subjected to degrading narratives
so narratives are so important like how are the
orang asli portrayed in the tour pack that is
being sold for example so that’s also something
to look at and also to i think for tourists especially
what a good and quite good allyship may entail
is really simply coming into a tour or even um
coming into a community with an open mind and
with a humble heart right recognizing that there
are perspectives that i might have of indigenous
peoples and i’m here to learn from them and i
think if it comes across really tangibly for
the orang asli as well um when people uh have
a desire to learn from them and then that would
encourage them to to share more and to experience
more things with you and so i would say again
for for tourists in in kind of like the tourism
sector what we really want to achieve what we
think is a good step first step towards allyship
is to recognize that actually i don’t really
know anything you know like like exactly what
you have said earlier on and how i felt when
i first stepped into the role and now recognizing
that i may be wrong about certain things or i
don’t really know that much about the orang asli
how then can i you know, bridge that gap, get
to know them better and then support them in
what they want to do. So that’s always, I think
that that’s a common starting point, right? Be
it international tourists or even a regular Malaysian
Joe or Jane, like just coming in with that humble
heart and being ready to have your perceptions
challenged. And that’s okay. It’s okay to be
wrong, you know? So, yeah. and what do you hope
for the future of our athlete culture and communities
in the next say or years right so personally
i think uh what i would hope to see is really
for it to have the um recognition that it deserves
um to be on mainstream media i think that’s a
big one um a typical portrayal of malaysia you
would just see malay chinese indian right and
lying right and others but can we And when you
ask, oh, what’s the national food of Malaysia?
Most people would say nasi lemak. But will there
be a day that we can say, oh, actually, there
are a few different type of things that Malaysians
typically consume. And it includes sambal kantan,
for example, from the orang asli. Is that day
ever going to come? I think a girl can dream,
but that’s the desire in terms of like… culture
and if you want to talk about food but on a more
you know aspirational level is really to see
how we can as a group of people come together
and again strive for that collective Malaysian
future and recognize that everybody has a role
to play and for every Malaysian to play their
role they need to be given that opportunity and
can we serve one another? Can we love one another
in ways that would provide those platforms and
those opportunities for our fellow Malaysian
brothers and sisters so that we can kind of journey
alongside one another and work towards that common
goal? Yeah. And that was Emily Wong from Native
Discovery. It was really quite like an eye -opening
conversation from my perspective. As someone
with Malaysian heritage, the fact that I didn’t
know anything about Orang Asli community made
me feel quite embarrassed. Yeah, I could imagine
so. It’s been interesting though, the way she
was saying though, that there is a growing interest
within the younger Malaysian population though.
Like, you know, millennials and onwards or whatever,
which you fall firmly in the bracket of. So,
I mean, it’s good to hear the, you know, more
like Malaysian folk are getting… interested
in to understand more about the orang asli people
and the indigenous people of of malaysia so no
i think it’s great that those conversations are
happening and there’s groups like that that are
working away on it i think it was really interesting
to hear her talk about nation building so you
know malaysia is such a young country it formed
in its current state in the s um so it’s such
a young country and so i guess it’s the question
of who is malaysia for how do we move forward
and you know you can only move forward if everyone’s
moving forward including the indigenous orang
asli people well that’s just it’s the word including
it has to be inclusive doesn’t it and even if
the orang asli only make up as you say less than
one percent of the population i think it’s easy
to kind of focus on malay malaysia chinese malaysia
indian malaysia but what about the orang asli
malaysia you know and so i think that’s you know
um strength and unity or whatever they say yeah
If you’re enjoying this episode, you can follow
us on social media at SateOK. We’ll be sharing
beautiful photos taken by Philip of Malaysia,
its people, and of course, the food. We’ll also
share photos of Malaysia from the archives, so
you can see how the country has changed over
time. You can also find links to give us a tip
or donation to show your appreciation for the
work we’re doing. So head to our socials at SateOK
or visit our website, sateok .com. To find out
more, Emily put us in touch with Ronnie Bahari.
Ronnie is a well -known Orang Asli community
leader. He’s a cultural advocate that is inspiring
the next generation to be proud of their Orang
Asli heritage. He does this through photography,
video work, social media and lots of other things.
We spoke to him about his journey from growing
up not knowing much about his own culture to
now being a community leader and the challenges
in promoting Orang Asli culture. Okay, my name
is Ronnie and I’m the indigenous and I come from
the Semai group and I’m a full -time photographer.
And I am also, how should I say, a leader of
the cultural group. So I’m also the nose flute
player and nose flute maker. I also don’t know
much about my own culture. I grew up in Gombak,
near, it’s about kilometers from KL. So the
expose of the urbanization so much on me. So
after I reached my age, I think plus, so I
find out there’s something is missing inside
my life. So I’m claiming that I’m the indigenous
people, but I don’t know much about my culture.
From that on, try to seek in my root and then
try to find out our cultures and heritage. And
then friends same age as me or even below than
me, they don’t know much about our heritage and
culture. So that motivates me. So we have to
start to do something. Why do you think so many
people have forgotten about all these beautiful
traditions? Aside from, you know, you mentioned
sort of people changing religions. Is it just
that or is it other things? yeah because we we
time to time we try to evolve i mean with the
with urban life you know uh and then uh since
malaysia independence so we we we’ve been thought
that we we need education we need development
we need everything so we embrace all that things
but we forgot to carry our cultures you know
because it seems like okay i will like our traditional
costume for a guy They have to wear a loincloth
and then some of the abit accessory, a headgear.
So sometimes for people on that particular time,
maybe they feel a bit embarrassed. I remember
during the s and s or early s, my mum did
tell me, you know, some of their friends or some
of them, they are schooling in their village.
But after they enter in the secondary school,
So they have to move to town. Most of them, whenever
they mix with the urban people, where they mix
up with them, in the beginning, it’s very hard
for the urban people to accept them because the
differences, differences of the language. This
kid, whenever they go up, they never knew how
to speak Malay. They understand, but it’s a bit
difficult for them to speak. Like me. on the
s i mean when i go to school i went to chinese
schools i understand malay i don’t understand
chinese so it’s very hard for me and then some
of my friends always always mocking me up i mean
they said they didn’t call me by the name but
they call me sakai yeah so this sakai boy oh
yeah i said but that time i i don’t know why
but whatever they call me i just feel proud it’s
like a reverse psychology i don’t feel shame
with that with what they are they try to mocking
me up they try to call me with that the bed but
i still probably with what really calling but
at the end i i believe they are trying to mock
me up at the end they call me by name yeah do
you think other Orang Asli people maybe did feel
a little shame and that’s maybe why they tried
to modernise more and forget their culture. Do
you think that was part of it for some people?
Yes, yes, yes. I believe, I mean, there’s reasons.
That’s why they try hard to blend with Malay,
with urban society. They don’t really have the
courage to represent themselves as Orang Asli.
That was before. But now, getting more and more,
the young generation are really proud with themselves
as Orang Asli. They always represent themselves
as Orang Asli. Because I believe, because now
we have a media social, me and my other friends,
we are trying to re -promote our Orang Asli names
and our Orang Asli cultures. We always tell them
not to be ashamed of who we are because we are
unique, we are special. So how did you go about
learning about your own culture? Was it about,
did you talk to older, older generation or how
did you go about learning? Okay, first I’m starting
reading with books, the old books written by
British. Okay, from there, I’ve been asking the
elders. Of course, we have to go to the elders.
Some of the elders, they have been not practical,
but they still remember it. So from there…
I just write it down sometimes, but most of the
time I memorize all the things. With this knowledge,
Ronnie began using his love of photography to
bring back aspects of his culture and to showcase
them to his community, especially to the young
people. I was interested in photography, documenting
the portrait people with my photography. So one
thing I found out that every culture, they have
their own costume. I found out in an old book.
written by British. There’s a book called Pagan
Race. So there’s a two volume of it. So from
there, I found out that the indigenous in Malaysia,
they have the cultures and the heritage are so
rich that I never knew before. So started from
there, I did ask the elders and I did find something,
I mean, in the books and then we go to museum.
Then I recreated the costume and then asked young
friends, you know. especially the pretty girls
and the handsome boy, just to ask them to wear
it. And then I photograph. Why I choose younger
generation? Because if I choose the elders, the
younger will not be interested. So I choose the
younger generation because they will see, especially
the young girls. So if they see another girl
wear the traditional costume and then it looks
beautiful, they will feel like… oh it’s like
a challenge for them so i also want to wear too
you know and then getting more and more younger
generation i mean they really really really have
the courage to wear their traditional costume
yeah so it sounds like you really brought back
your culture to life yes yes being just from
talking and it’s alive again yes yeah I wish
that I can do more, but I’m alone. Take me a
longer time to discover all of it. Yeah. Are
there many other people in your community that
feel the same, that want to bring that culture
alive again? Yeah, I made some of our friends,
so I try to influence them. What I’m doing, you
know, I try to inspire the young generation.
I mean, so try to convince them and try to tell
them we have to be proud with our heritage and
cultures. What’s been the reaction from those
young people? Yeah, in the beginning, they have
some of them rejected and some of them, they
also, I mean, they’re surprised. They didn’t
know that our culture are so rich. So after a
few, one or two, three years, something like
that, after I’ve been photographing the traditional
costume. Then it’s getting slowly and slowly
to make people more interested in knowing about
their heritage and cultures. And some of my friends,
they try to recreate it, try to mix up the pre
-represent with the modern way. And they mix
up the cultures and the modern way. Well, it’s
really impressive. For example, our weddings.
Our traditional wedding is very, very simple.
But after, I don’t know when, because maybe after
we have contact with the Malay ruler. So from
there, we adopt the Malay cultures in Besanding.
But after what I’ve been doing, more and more
couples, they have started to wear their traditional
costume. They make it, you know, more traditional
look rather than before they practice like a
Malay. A wedding look. Yeah, something like that.
That must be so nice to see. Yeah, yeah. Changing
people’s attitudes. Yes, yes. I sit alone and
then I feel, when I look at it, I just feel proud.
But he doesn’t just use photography. He also
started an organization with some friends called
Pasantwan Kabudayan dan Kesenian Orang Asaw Parag.
They run fashion competitions, workshops, all
to encourage young people to get involved with
their own culture. We set up this organisation
without any, we don’t have any money with every
of us. We try to make a programme without involving
any money. So what we do is an online traditional
costume competition. So we managed to get
participants. Wow, for the first one? Yes. Wow.
And I come up with my pocket money, of my
pocket money. So as a present. Prize money. Yeah.
Through this organization, Ronnie also works
hard to bridge the generational gap, running
workshops that bring together older and younger
generations. And how did it go when the older
generation and the younger generation came together?
What are those sessions like? So it’s actually
not much, but it’s actually building the trust.
Because the elders always have an excuse not
to teach the young generation because they say
the young generation don’t have the interest.
So the young generation, I mean, they have another
thought on the elders. The elders don’t want
to teach and then they have so many restrictions.
For example… Mad weaving, the works are so
complicated. We have to harvest the pendants.
After the harvest, so we have to plug in the
thorn and then to cook it, to soak it in the
hot water and soak it with the colors. And then
we have to dry. So the process is long process.
This process always have a table on it. You know,
we cannot harvest the pendants on the daytime.
We have to harvest it early in the morning. So
it’s so, so many of the table thing, you know?
So that’s why the young generation are always
like too complicated for them to learn. How did
you go about building that trust between those
generations? So after we, we, we made them together,
then we try to talk to them and then we try to
give the explanation why we do this. The importance
of what we’re doing, you know, uh, we, we always
tell them how about another five or years,
if we don’t do this. the thing will be gone forever.
So that’s what we always tell them. We also tell
them they can make a profit out of it. Vonnie
says it’s a work in progress, and that there’s
still aspects of his culture that he’s still
learning about, like the food and cuisine. For
Semang, we have a similarity food with our neighbour,
Malay. Whatever the menu on Malay, we also have,
you know. how we share the same menu. I’ve been
asking our elders, why we cook like the Malay?
They said, no, we didn’t cook like Malay. We
originally cook like this. I mean, I’ve been
learning from my mother and then my grandmother.
I mean, it’s the same menu like this. And then
when I asked my Malay friends, since generation,
they already cook like that. I don’t know why,
maybe. We are from the same group or whatever.
I don’t know. Because what I believe from hundreds
of years, we have been sharing faith and sharing
life together. When the religion became stronger,
such as Islam, there’s a few restrictions that
separate us more and more. So is the food culture
something you’re still trying to understand?
You’re still trying to work out? Yeah, yeah.
Because like, for example, like lemak, Despite
his efforts, not everyone in his community is
happy. Ronnie occasionally has arguments with
some elders. They don’t have much interest on
our traditional culture. Might as well I share
this knowledge to everybody. At least it’s not
gone. It’s documenting by others and then it’s
memorized by others. And then one day, one day,
our children, I mean, will go back to find their
roots and then it still exists. Do you think
the elders are slowly coming around to what you’re
doing? Yeah, some of them, yes, and some of them,
no. You can’t please everyone, can you? Yeah,
true. I can’t please everyone. Regardless of
this tension, Ronnie has helped to change perceptions
from beyond his community. We don’t have much
information about Orang Asli life, about Orang
Asli cultures, about Orang Asli costume. So through
this photography and through these competitions,
getting more and more others getting to know.
the orang asli and then they started to realize
that some sometimes what the bad word they are
saying it’s not good they cannot use anymore
such as jakun and sakai you know it’s really
positive i mean people all over the whole malaysia
they started to think more knowledge on on the
orang asli so we gain more respect And as much
as his community is growing, it’s still quite
difficult for tourists and visitors to learn
more about Orang Asli culture. I like to tell
them, I mean, indigenous in Malaysia, it’s not
only Mahmari. It’s actually a lot more. I like
them to know more about the orang asli through
what we are doing. For time being, we don’t have
any good galleries, a good place. I mean, the
foreigners can learn. Our National Museum and
the Orang Asli Museum somewhere in Gombak. They
provide the information, but I believe information
is not really up to date. So people always, when
they go to the museum, they will learn the Orang
Asli. I mean, backward, you know, not in the
current modern day Orang Asli. So whenever they
meet me, they’re always like, are you really
Orang Asli? Yeah, so yeah, but you’re not like
what we have been seeing in the museum. Yeah,
of course, I know. I mean, I tell them in the
museum. The data and the information there is
the older information. I think they should really
have to update the information, you know. Ronnie
has a message, though, for everyone. For my younger
generation, especially, we have to really work
hard, I mean, to really discover back our cultures
and heritage. And then we have to really preserve
it before it’s dying, you know. For our other
friends, please support us. so that we can practice
our cultures, that we can make our younger generation
proud, then inspire them to practice more about
the cultures. And that was Ronnie Bahari, Orang
Asli community leader. What did you make of it,
Philip? I thought it was super interesting. I
just think the whole journey that he’s been on
to just uncover his own identity, basically,
I think. using colonial British textbooks to
kind of find out about customs practices, design
and things like that as well. It’s really inspiring
to hear the ways in which he’s building his own
culture. It must be quite painful to read some
of these colonial textbooks and have to filter
out all of the racism as you’re reading this.
And that process must not be easy. Like for me,
I’m an immigrant. I didn’t grow up in the culture
of my birth, but I’m from quite a populous culture.
So if I want to learn about Chinese Malaysian
heritage. I can just read the internet. I can
read other Chinese Malaysians’ words about the
topic. But Ronnie couldn’t do that. And for a
lot of other Orang Asli people, they can’t necessarily
do that. No, it’s insane. And I think what’s
just so weird to me, certainly as a Brit, as
somebody of the country, the empire that ran
Malaysia for so many years, are now the source
texts for his own culture. And I can only imagine
how many passages about Orang Asli people must
sit in the archives of the British Museum or
the British Library or something like that that
are just things that haven’t been digitised yet
and there aren’t copies of in Malaysia or Singapore
or wherever for him to be able to easily go back
and reference to continue to build his own. identity,
I guess, more than anything, and his own community,
or reinforce his own community, I guess you would
really say. I do love that Ronnie’s not afraid
to modernise things, though. You know, he’s trying
to connect younger generations and older generations
and kind of correcting assumptions between those.
He’s updating costumes, so… women’s costumes
used to be bare chested and you know if you’re
a young woman you probably don’t want that so
he’s been like no we can actually make a a top
to go with it he mentioned at the top of the
interview that he plays the nose flute so nose
flute is a type of instrument where you kind
of blow out through your nostrils in order to
make the sound for the flute and he was telling
me that The songs don’t really exist because
the people that know how to make it, there aren’t
many of them. So he’s basically having to create
new songs. And if you are interested to hear
what these songs sound like, go to Ronnie Bahari’s
Instagram or TikTok and he’s got videos that
you can hear his music. What I also loved about
Ronnie is how he’s using the arts to perpetuate
his culture. So, you know, photography for that
very positive goal. promoting culture and Ronnie’s
exhibited at the Venice Biennale with his works
which is amazing which is stunning and so he’s
really doing as much as he can to promote his
own culture yeah it’s the enterprise and the
entrepreneurship of him I think is something
that should be so like admired it’s quite easy
to sit back and do nothing I think but really
feels that it is his cause I guess to kind of
champion this I guess But he’s so modest as well,
and I don’t even think he cares about being the
face of it in any sort of a way. I think he just
wants to rally people and make the community
make more noise, I think. It’s almost like a
sadness in that we’re coming at this from the
perspective of the first step is to acknowledge
that they exist, that they have a culture. That
always makes me feel uncomfortable and sad for
my own birth country. It’s good that there are
people in the grassroots, you know, in these
cultural groups that are doing all of these things
to just secure it with what they can. And at
least, you know, if we don’t have national archives,
we have the cloud. And so Ronnie can take his
photographs and then they will live forevermore
somewhere online in a server farm somewhere.
Forevermore. We hope, yeah, not lost. So a massive
learning experience with this episode today for
both of us. If we go back to our food of the
episode, durian. I think these two interviews
almost recontextualized Durian for me. You know,
Durian is this symbol of Malaysia, Southeast
Asia, if you will. It has massive significance
for the land, its culture, its people. And I
think the more we learn about indigenous cultures,
the deeper appreciation I think we have. It’s
always about appreciation, I think. I think it’s
just acknowledging and appreciating and not taking
for granted. I don’t know, in our projects, try
to make sure that we are learning and helping
to advocate and promote. So, you know. Indeed.
Well, Philip, that is unfortunately all the time
that we have today. Thank you so much, everybody,
for joining us. We really hope that you’ve enjoyed
today’s episode. Now, don’t forget to tune in
for the next episode. We’re going to jump forward
in time to about years ago, and we’re going
to look at the start of Malay culture. It’s an
episode called Coconuts and the Land Before Borders.
So join us for the next episode of Sate. Okay.